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[Music]

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hello everyone how's it going and

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welcome back to disclosure teams youtube

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channel

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uh good to see everybody here in the

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live chat i really appreciate you all

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being here i'm really excited for this

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one i've been preparing for this one for

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a little bit for a little while and the

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case that we're going to be discussing

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mainly tonight is just absolutely

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fascinating and i don't believe it gets

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talked about enough whatsoever

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um just going to give a shout out to all

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the people that have become members on

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the channel i really appreciate all of

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you and it just really does help the

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channel so you know if you're

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considering it check it out if you want

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to support the channel there's some

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links below but you know i don't really

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shout that stuff around but you know i

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just wanted everyone to know that any

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support is really appreciated

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so uh let's jump straight into we've got

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um dr david clark here with us tonight

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we're gonna hear all about this case

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we've got some never before heard audio

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clips of interviews with raf servicemen

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who were involved with the case i've

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been going through and editing them out

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editing editing out clips from these

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interviews for anybody that does want to

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listen to the full interviews because

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one of them is like an hour and for 45

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minutes

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link below in the description to my

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google drive you can download them check

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them out for yourselves and i highly

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recommend it because it's amazing

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so let's not waste any more time and i'd

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like to please put your hands together

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for

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dr david clarke david how you doing good

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great to see everybody again oh it's

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great to see you vinnie yes you're

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becoming quite the regular now yeah

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absolutely i i really appreciate it and

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uh

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yeah i think last time or we spoke a

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while back and i said to you what are

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the the kind of cases that you think

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really do hold a lot of weight that

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probably don't really get talked about

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here in the uk and

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this one the sort of bent waters

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lakenheath was probably the first one

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that you mentioned so

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i had to have you on to talk about it

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and then when we found out or i found

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out that you'd done these interviews

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with the

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kind of people that were there and

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involved in it you know i knew it it had

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to be talked about so

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i'll kind of hand it over to you and if

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you could just sort of go through the

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story and tell us about it because like

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i said it is absolutely fascinating and

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then when you feel like i should play

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any clips or show any images and stuff

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just let me know and we'll go from there

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okay thanks vinnie um just to introduce

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this um this story or case

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um before rendelsham came along

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um this is a long time ago now um this

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case the what was known as the lake and

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heath bent waters case which happened in

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the same area of east anglia

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um as the rendelsham forest incident it

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was probably the best known or the most

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evidential

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um ufo incident in the um in the british

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sort of case list

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and um

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it happened in 1956 at the height of the

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cold war um but the thing is it was it

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was effectively covered by official

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secrets act

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until the late 1960s so no one actually

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knew it wasn't in the public domain

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until the end of the 1960s which is when

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if so you'll know that the american

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project blue book that the us air force

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um were running they they basically

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closed shop and they gave a contract to

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the university of colorado

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to write a report this became the

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infamous condon report

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not condy condon

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and

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they examined something like 12 000

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separate ufo incidents reported to the

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u.s air force

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and some of them were foreign

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where for example um there were u.s air

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bases in in europe and far east and the

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interesting thing is out of those 12 000

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cases um i think there was something

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like 700 that were remained unexplained

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and one of those was from britain and

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that was the lake in heath ben waters

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case and no one in this country in

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ufology

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knew anything about this story until the

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americans published it in 1969

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and unfortunately

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the if you believe what the british

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government tell us

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their files on it by that point the late

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1960s had been destroyed

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so

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when this came out all the all the mod

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was saying the usual sort of thing sorry

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we can't tell you anything about it

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because we've destroyed our file on the

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kids

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so um

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as i say it was it's it is hugely

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evidential there was a lot of

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information in the american um files

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because um it was the american air force

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bases that bent waters and lakenheath

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in east anglia where um these objects

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the ufos uaps whatever you want to call

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them were picked up first on radar now

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they alerted the royal air force because

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their sort of guests in the uk at that

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time

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right at the height of the cold war it

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was just as the suez crisis was was

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brewing in the in the um

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in the middle east um there was huge

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tensions with the soviet union which is

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there are some connections with what's

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going on today i mean people thought at

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that time we were literally on the verge

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of the third world war

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um there was there was raf um aircraft

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that were poised on quick reaction

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alerts base bases all around the east

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coast

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um they were in contact with radar

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stations anything that was approaching

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the uk across the north sea

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um there was connect that was um seen on

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radar there would be an immediate

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scramble an aircraft would be sent off

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across the north sea to investigate and

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the russians were probing our defenses

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probably two three times every week

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so

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put ufos or uaps into that mix

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[Music]

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and you've got a real you've got the

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basis for an incredible story and on the

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top of that i mean when i looked into

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the background to this raf lakenheath

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which is still tenanted by the u.s air

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force today was a base for nuclear

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weapons

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and again something that was covered up

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for many many years just before this ufo

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incident in june or july

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1956 there was a i think it was a b-56

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bomber coming in to land at lakenheath

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went out of control crashed into the

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nuclear weapons stall and very nearly

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triggered off a massive nuclear incident

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in east anglia that would have

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you know covered east anglia in in

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fallout

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narrowly avoided the detonator didn't go

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off and again this didn't emerge until

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something like 1980 and as american

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general mentioned it and it came out in

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parliament

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at the same time as well just before the

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ufo incident the the cia were flying the

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what was then the brand new black

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project u2 spy plane

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from lakenheath

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uh and and they had a contingent of

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these u2 spy planes that were that were

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being sent over the soviet union with

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the consent

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of our prime minister at the time harold

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mcmillan and the the um the u2s were

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shipped into the uk in big wooden boxes

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disguised as bananas

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big banana boxes and uh

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apparently when some of the other

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politicians found out about it they had

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to get rid of them moved them off to

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weisbarden in west germany but you can

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see if you were

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an american officer or you were in the

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raf

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and you were based in that area you knew

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all this stuff was going on

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you can imagine the tension there must

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have been

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and then one night

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august the night of august the 13th 14th

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1956 this is a really hot

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steamy summer night clear skies

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um

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[Music]

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calls start coming in to the raf from

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the various air bases around the east

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coast raf bent waters

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um raf lakenheath all of them picking up

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weird objects on their ground control

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approach radars so this is where it gets

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complicated because the american bases

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had radar but these were just airfield

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radars so they had a small radius they

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didn't sort of see very far

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um and they were seeing odd things on

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the radar and people were going outside

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and they were seeing lights in the sky

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that was streaming across the sky moving

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at incredible speeds something

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i think the the some of the things that

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have been seen on radar were moving at

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some incredible speed 4 000 miles per

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hour was one of the things that were

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registered

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formations of objects as well that were

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sort of slowly moving and then others

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that were moving really fast

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and they were phoning this into the raf

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um that's the stage at which the raf

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starts to to look on their radars now

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the raf radar and you can see a picture

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of something like what was being used

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at the time this is a type um 85

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centimetric centimetric radar which is

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um still on site if you go to raf niti

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said which is a radar museum in the

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norfolk broads they've still got the

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radar from that era

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you can go and look at it so this this

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is like one of the control cabins that

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we're using and a um an raf um

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uh officer called freddie wimbledon who

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i i got to know really well i was in

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lengthy communication with him

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about 20 years ago when he was in his

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late 80s early 90s he was the chief

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controller uh raf neeti said so he

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started taking the calls from bentwaters

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early in the evening

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and lakenheath quite later on around

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midnight

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and he was quite skeptical as you can

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imagine um and he would looked on his

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radar picture and could not believe what

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he could see because he could see

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something

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that had apparently come across the

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north sea that was that was moving in

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unlike any aircraft moving at fantastic

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speeds this was at quite a high altitude

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because the only way i can describe it

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if you can imagine a radar doing this

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from a source so you've got the ground

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control

279
00:10:33,190 --> 00:10:30,640
radars that are sort of spinning around

280
00:10:35,590 --> 00:10:33,200
like that and maybe seeing something and

281
00:10:38,870 --> 00:10:35,600
they're putting out pulses at a certain

282
00:10:40,949 --> 00:10:38,880
speed now the the the radar that freddie

283
00:10:43,509 --> 00:10:40,959
wimbledon had access to

284
00:10:46,389 --> 00:10:43,519
really high powered ground control

285
00:10:48,389 --> 00:10:46,399
interception radar so much more powerful

286
00:10:50,870 --> 00:10:48,399
spanning out right across the north sea

287
00:10:53,509 --> 00:10:50,880
so he could see this thing zooming in

288
00:10:56,630 --> 00:10:53,519
moving at incredible speed stopping

289
00:10:58,069 --> 00:10:56,640
stationary unlike any aircraft movement

290
00:11:00,230 --> 00:10:58,079
and

291
00:11:02,069 --> 00:11:00,240
he thought is it the russians you know

292
00:11:03,110 --> 00:11:02,079
if it is the russians it's too late to

293
00:11:04,870 --> 00:11:03,120
do anything about it because they're

294
00:11:07,269 --> 00:11:04,880
already here

295
00:11:08,389 --> 00:11:07,279
yeah over lakenheath nuclear-armed

296
00:11:11,110 --> 00:11:08,399
airbase

297
00:11:14,470 --> 00:11:11,120
uh where this where the u2 spy plane was

298
00:11:17,110 --> 00:11:14,480
um so basically um perhaps we ought to

299
00:11:18,949 --> 00:11:17,120
um play some of the tape of freddie i'm

300
00:11:21,110 --> 00:11:18,959
talking about this it's about five or

301
00:11:22,710 --> 00:11:21,120
six minutes i think this one's seven

302
00:11:24,150 --> 00:11:22,720
minutes

303
00:11:26,790 --> 00:11:24,160
yeah and for everyone that's watching

304
00:11:28,550 --> 00:11:26,800
live if you could if the quality isn't

305
00:11:30,310 --> 00:11:28,560
great so i've upped it i've upped the

306
00:11:31,509 --> 00:11:30,320
gain and stuff when i was editing it but

307
00:11:32,790 --> 00:11:31,519
if you could just let me know in the

308
00:11:35,030 --> 00:11:32,800
chat if you can

309
00:11:37,829 --> 00:11:35,040
hear it at least because i know it's not

310
00:11:40,550 --> 00:11:37,839
going to be easy so um yeah let's let's

311
00:11:43,190 --> 00:11:40,560
play it i should just say i i made these

312
00:11:45,110 --> 00:11:43,200
recordings 22 years ago before we had

313
00:11:46,790 --> 00:11:45,120
digital technology so they were made on

314
00:11:49,590 --> 00:11:46,800
c90 cassettes and they've been

315
00:11:51,509 --> 00:11:49,600
transferred to mp3

316
00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:51,519
yeah let's go for it let's see if people

317
00:11:56,389 --> 00:11:54,930
can hear it

318
00:11:58,470 --> 00:11:56,399
[Music]

319
00:12:01,750 --> 00:11:58,480
uh on the night of the

320
00:12:03,350 --> 00:12:01,760
13th 14th august 1956

321
00:12:05,750 --> 00:12:03,360
six

322
00:12:08,710 --> 00:12:05,760
i was the flight attendant on duty and

323
00:12:12,629 --> 00:12:08,720
chief interception controller

324
00:12:15,430 --> 00:12:12,639
at a radar station in east anglia

325
00:12:16,550 --> 00:12:15,440
my function was to watch the radar

326
00:12:19,030 --> 00:12:16,560
picture

327
00:12:20,710 --> 00:12:19,040
as seen on our consoles

328
00:12:23,590 --> 00:12:20,720
and if any

329
00:12:25,990 --> 00:12:23,600
anything abnormal seen to take one

330
00:12:28,790 --> 00:12:26,000
action was necessary

331
00:12:31,190 --> 00:12:28,800
this involved

332
00:12:36,829 --> 00:12:31,200
scrambling fighter aircraft which were

333
00:12:43,910 --> 00:12:40,069
but um

334
00:12:47,910 --> 00:12:43,920
not last i got i went on duty at

335
00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:56,710
23 30.

336
00:13:00,069 --> 00:12:57,990
um

337
00:13:01,750 --> 00:13:00,079
we began to notice

338
00:13:05,030 --> 00:13:01,760
um

339
00:13:06,949 --> 00:13:05,040
a return on uh palmar

340
00:13:12,470 --> 00:13:06,959
which was

341
00:13:17,910 --> 00:13:15,910
from something going very very fast

342
00:13:19,509 --> 00:13:17,920
much faster than anything we've ever

343
00:13:21,509 --> 00:13:19,519
seen before

344
00:13:24,790 --> 00:13:21,519
and then suddenly stopping

345
00:13:28,470 --> 00:13:24,800
and i did the apparent slowing down

346
00:13:32,629 --> 00:13:28,480
and then accelerating from that position

347
00:13:36,629 --> 00:13:32,639
um that terrific speed straight away

348
00:13:40,790 --> 00:13:38,949
but i conferred with the sector

349
00:13:43,910 --> 00:13:40,800
controller

350
00:13:45,430 --> 00:13:43,920
and uh said i thought we ought to

351
00:13:47,189 --> 00:13:45,440
scramble

352
00:13:49,430 --> 00:13:47,199
the battleflight

353
00:13:52,790 --> 00:13:49,440
see what it was

354
00:13:55,030 --> 00:13:52,800
so the bratified troops scramble

355
00:13:56,230 --> 00:13:55,040
that consists of two

356
00:13:57,750 --> 00:13:56,240
venom

357
00:13:59,509 --> 00:13:57,760
and then

358
00:14:03,269 --> 00:13:59,519
two

359
00:14:06,629 --> 00:14:03,279
uh a slight fighter version of the venom

360
00:14:09,269 --> 00:14:06,639
that carried the pilot the navigator

361
00:14:11,590 --> 00:14:09,279
navigator sitting on the right hand side

362
00:14:12,949 --> 00:14:11,600
but otherwise for a more or less side by

363
00:14:16,389 --> 00:14:12,959
side

364
00:14:18,949 --> 00:14:16,399
the navigator had his own radar

365
00:14:21,430 --> 00:14:18,959
the function being that

366
00:14:24,550 --> 00:14:21,440
when he was directed

367
00:14:27,110 --> 00:14:24,560
from the ground

368
00:14:29,590 --> 00:14:27,120
he would have one statement

369
00:14:31,509 --> 00:14:29,600
he would search on his own radar

370
00:14:34,230 --> 00:14:31,519
until he found

371
00:14:36,150 --> 00:14:34,240
the object from the directions given

372
00:14:38,150 --> 00:14:36,160
from the ground

373
00:14:41,670 --> 00:14:38,160
and

374
00:14:46,710 --> 00:14:44,470
he would watch the object if he had

375
00:14:48,550 --> 00:14:46,720
picked it up by that time

376
00:14:51,750 --> 00:14:48,560
and

377
00:14:53,509 --> 00:14:51,760
subsequently at a certain stage

378
00:14:55,430 --> 00:14:53,519
he would take over

379
00:14:56,470 --> 00:14:55,440
the interception

380
00:14:58,629 --> 00:14:56,480
if

381
00:15:00,550 --> 00:14:58,639
ordered to

382
00:15:02,150 --> 00:15:00,560
in this case

383
00:15:04,710 --> 00:15:02,160
um

384
00:15:08,389 --> 00:15:04,720
a contact was made

385
00:15:10,550 --> 00:15:08,399
on an aircraft which appeared to be

386
00:15:12,790 --> 00:15:10,560
well i didn't know it was an aircraft it

387
00:15:14,230 --> 00:15:12,800
was just it appeared to be a very bright

388
00:15:17,189 --> 00:15:14,240
light

389
00:15:17,199 --> 00:15:20,949
the

390
00:15:25,590 --> 00:15:23,910
navigator thought he had it

391
00:15:28,150 --> 00:15:25,600
on his screen

392
00:15:28,949 --> 00:15:28,160
but it kept disappearing

393
00:15:29,749 --> 00:15:28,959
and

394
00:15:33,350 --> 00:15:29,759
what

395
00:15:35,030 --> 00:15:33,360
that one said appeared to be stationary

396
00:15:36,389 --> 00:15:35,040
in which case

397
00:15:39,430 --> 00:15:36,399
um

398
00:15:40,949 --> 00:15:39,440
we on the ground

399
00:15:44,069 --> 00:15:40,959
thought

400
00:15:46,310 --> 00:15:44,079
this object which we have followed

401
00:15:50,230 --> 00:15:46,320
the whole time

402
00:15:57,430 --> 00:15:52,629
was behaving rather erratically

403
00:15:59,590 --> 00:15:57,440
so we had two choices there either this

404
00:16:03,910 --> 00:15:59,600
whatever it was

405
00:16:08,870 --> 00:16:03,920
um had been able to loop and get behind

406
00:16:09,829 --> 00:16:08,880
by the target aircraft or target rather

407
00:16:11,670 --> 00:16:09,839
or

408
00:16:14,470 --> 00:16:11,680
the

409
00:16:16,310 --> 00:16:14,480
it has undershot

410
00:16:19,430 --> 00:16:16,320
the targets

411
00:16:25,269 --> 00:16:19,440
which later appeared to be the correct

412
00:16:30,230 --> 00:16:28,389
so i decided then to travel another

413
00:16:31,590 --> 00:16:30,240
aircraft

414
00:16:33,590 --> 00:16:31,600
and

415
00:16:37,430 --> 00:16:33,600
that was scrambled

416
00:16:39,189 --> 00:16:37,440
to join the chase in the meantime

417
00:16:41,189 --> 00:16:39,199
the target

418
00:16:43,910 --> 00:16:41,199
has shot up

419
00:16:45,990 --> 00:16:43,920
at a tremendous pace the northeast of

420
00:16:48,870 --> 00:16:46,000
the direction

421
00:16:52,710 --> 00:16:48,880
but at such a rate that our

422
00:16:53,590 --> 00:16:52,720
height it was off our height

423
00:16:55,189 --> 00:16:53,600
um

424
00:16:56,629 --> 00:16:55,199
consoles

425
00:16:58,310 --> 00:16:56,639
before he would say

426
00:17:02,069 --> 00:16:58,320
jack robinson

427
00:17:06,470 --> 00:17:03,670
oh

428
00:17:07,750 --> 00:17:06,480
i don't say shaken by this

429
00:17:09,990 --> 00:17:07,760
but um

430
00:17:11,669 --> 00:17:10,000
the experience was such

431
00:17:14,470 --> 00:17:11,679
that we've never had something that

432
00:17:18,510 --> 00:17:14,480
we've never encountered before

433
00:17:20,470 --> 00:17:18,520
and the sheer speed not only speed

434
00:17:24,390 --> 00:17:20,480
maneuverability

435
00:17:29,110 --> 00:17:24,400
of this object whatever it was

436
00:17:36,789 --> 00:17:32,549
the next day we were visiting

437
00:17:37,669 --> 00:17:36,799
by a group captain from heidi command

438
00:17:38,789 --> 00:17:37,679
who

439
00:17:41,430 --> 00:17:38,799
wanted

440
00:17:43,190 --> 00:17:41,440
the story

441
00:17:45,270 --> 00:17:43,200
and

442
00:17:48,710 --> 00:17:45,280
she told us

443
00:17:49,909 --> 00:17:48,720
under no circumstances where we

444
00:17:53,270 --> 00:17:49,919
to

445
00:17:55,510 --> 00:17:53,280
talk about it about self-care or anybody

446
00:17:58,390 --> 00:17:55,520
else and never let

447
00:18:00,870 --> 00:17:58,400
the press or anything down

448
00:18:04,070 --> 00:18:00,880
and um

449
00:18:05,990 --> 00:18:04,080
it seemed very strange at the time

450
00:18:09,029 --> 00:18:06,000
but he says

451
00:18:11,990 --> 00:18:09,039
don't worry you haven't seen something

452
00:18:14,070 --> 00:18:12,000
these things are

453
00:18:16,710 --> 00:18:14,080
very described at

454
00:18:18,470 --> 00:18:16,720
a bright light

455
00:18:22,150 --> 00:18:18,480
they couldn't say anything else but a

456
00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:25,669
i think you've got a measure of it there

457
00:18:25,679 --> 00:18:33,990
on the radar

458
00:18:39,270 --> 00:18:36,310
just exactly the same as one another

459
00:18:41,990 --> 00:18:39,280
would be right but probably behaving in

460
00:18:44,390 --> 00:18:42,000
a way but behind in a way that no

461
00:18:46,710 --> 00:18:44,400
aircraft of that time or anything in

462
00:18:48,630 --> 00:18:46,720
business

463
00:18:51,510 --> 00:18:48,640
would be able to do

464
00:18:53,190 --> 00:18:51,520
i mean no air corruption would be doing

465
00:18:58,310 --> 00:18:53,200
two or three thousand miles an hour and

466
00:19:00,390 --> 00:18:59,190
yeah

467
00:19:04,630 --> 00:19:00,400
i mean

468
00:19:07,590 --> 00:19:04,640
late 80s when i interviewed him and that

469
00:19:10,470 --> 00:19:07,600
would have been about 2000 2001 and i

470
00:19:12,310 --> 00:19:10,480
should say the reason why um we knew

471
00:19:13,990 --> 00:19:12,320
he'd come forward and he was willing to

472
00:19:15,909 --> 00:19:14,000
talk about it was

473
00:19:17,510 --> 00:19:15,919
in 1978

474
00:19:21,750 --> 00:19:17,520
i think he was shortly after steven

475
00:19:24,950 --> 00:19:21,760
spielberg's film had been released um

476
00:19:27,350 --> 00:19:24,960
yeah a skeptic called ian ridpath who i

477
00:19:29,669 --> 00:19:27,360
know quite well he wrote a piece

478
00:19:32,390 --> 00:19:29,679
for i think it was the sunday times

479
00:19:35,909 --> 00:19:32,400
um based upon what had been in the con

480
00:19:37,909 --> 00:19:35,919
condon report about the case and because

481
00:19:40,230 --> 00:19:37,919
it was only the american version it was

482
00:19:42,230 --> 00:19:40,240
all completely wrong and mixed up and

483
00:19:43,190 --> 00:19:42,240
this was in the sunday times and freddie

484
00:19:45,029 --> 00:19:43,200
read it

485
00:19:47,590 --> 00:19:45,039
and he wrote into the sunday times and

486
00:19:49,669 --> 00:19:47,600
said what a load of nonsense that

487
00:19:51,909 --> 00:19:49,679
i was there why has no one asked me

488
00:19:53,029 --> 00:19:51,919
about this and that's how it came out

489
00:19:55,430 --> 00:19:53,039
that he

490
00:19:56,710 --> 00:19:55,440
was involved in this so managed to track

491
00:19:58,310 --> 00:19:56,720
him down

492
00:20:00,549 --> 00:19:58,320
and get him speaking he spoke to various

493
00:20:02,630 --> 00:20:00,559
other ufologists as well

494
00:20:05,190 --> 00:20:02,640
but as you can see quite an incredible

495
00:20:08,710 --> 00:20:05,200
story and the story that he told

496
00:20:10,310 --> 00:20:08,720
it's pretty much um it's it's um it's

497
00:20:12,950 --> 00:20:10,320
it's pretty much the same story that's

498
00:20:14,630 --> 00:20:12,960
in the blue book records but there's a

499
00:20:16,149 --> 00:20:14,640
lot of inconsistencies which i don't

500
00:20:19,029 --> 00:20:16,159
think we need to sort of go into at the

501
00:20:21,190 --> 00:20:19,039
moment it's it's sort of like sure um

502
00:20:24,070 --> 00:20:21,200
it's it's about the timings because the

503
00:20:25,590 --> 00:20:24,080
american timings um seem to be earlier

504
00:20:27,190 --> 00:20:25,600
in the evening and he's talking about

505
00:20:28,710 --> 00:20:27,200
something that happened after midnight

506
00:20:30,470 --> 00:20:28,720
but yeah there's a lot there's a lot of

507
00:20:32,630 --> 00:20:30,480
things that could explain that because

508
00:20:34,870 --> 00:20:32,640
at the time we were subject to what was

509
00:20:37,750 --> 00:20:34,880
known as british double british summer

510
00:20:39,350 --> 00:20:37,760
time so our time was two hours ahead of

511
00:20:41,270 --> 00:20:39,360
the american time

512
00:20:44,149 --> 00:20:41,280
so there's lots of sort of distortions

513
00:20:46,310 --> 00:20:44,159
going on like that but he was obviously

514
00:20:48,950 --> 00:20:46,320
he ordered the interceptors

515
00:20:51,190 --> 00:20:48,960
and and it wasn't until i think the late

516
00:20:52,710 --> 00:20:51,200
1990s that we actually tracked down the

517
00:20:56,310 --> 00:20:52,720
pilots and the navigators who were

518
00:20:58,630 --> 00:20:56,320
flying the venoms the nf-4 nf-10 venoms

519
00:21:00,310 --> 00:20:58,640
and they were like as fediadex explained

520
00:21:02,710 --> 00:21:00,320
in that clip they were like a

521
00:21:04,870 --> 00:21:02,720
double-seater um interceptor aircraft

522
00:21:06,070 --> 00:21:04,880
that had forward-facing interception

523
00:21:07,270 --> 00:21:06,080
radars

524
00:21:09,110 --> 00:21:07,280
so he

525
00:21:11,270 --> 00:21:09,120
scrambled them from the battle flight so

526
00:21:14,789 --> 00:21:11,280
that so there was a group of venoms that

527
00:21:17,270 --> 00:21:14,799
were on 24 24-hour call

528
00:21:19,590 --> 00:21:17,280
at a base called raf water beach which

529
00:21:21,669 --> 00:21:19,600
is near cambridgeshire cambridge city

530
00:21:23,110 --> 00:21:21,679
cambridge and there was a whole group of

531
00:21:25,590 --> 00:21:23,120
people so this is where you get all

532
00:21:27,750 --> 00:21:25,600
these other names like graham schofield

533
00:21:29,590 --> 00:21:27,760
uh john brady ivan logan they were all

534
00:21:31,350 --> 00:21:29,600
sat around in this you know you can

535
00:21:33,190 --> 00:21:31,360
imagine the battle of britain

536
00:21:35,190 --> 00:21:33,200
yeah similar sort of thing but cold war

537
00:21:37,350 --> 00:21:35,200
they were waiting for the call they were

538
00:21:38,630 --> 00:21:37,360
expecting the russians to come and they

539
00:21:41,110 --> 00:21:38,640
thought the russians would be coming

540
00:21:43,350 --> 00:21:41,120
over the over the um the north sea at

541
00:21:46,950 --> 00:21:43,360
very high altitude you know the russian

542
00:21:50,230 --> 00:21:46,960
bears so when they got this call from um

543
00:21:51,990 --> 00:21:50,240
from uh the raf niti said um they were

544
00:21:53,270 --> 00:21:52,000
absolutely amazed because they were

545
00:21:55,510 --> 00:21:53,280
being asked to go and intercept

546
00:21:57,029 --> 00:21:55,520
something that was at four thousand feet

547
00:21:59,750 --> 00:21:57,039
above the east anglian countries

548
00:22:01,669 --> 00:21:59,760
countryside so if it was the russians

549
00:22:03,590 --> 00:22:01,679
it's far too late to do anything about

550
00:22:06,230 --> 00:22:03,600
it so perhaps we ought to now

551
00:22:08,390 --> 00:22:06,240
play the the description from john brady

552
00:22:10,310 --> 00:22:08,400
who was a navigator in the first venom

553
00:22:13,110 --> 00:22:10,320
he he was sent

554
00:22:15,669 --> 00:22:13,120
by um freddie wimbledon to intercept

555
00:22:18,070 --> 00:22:15,679
um this ufo that was on the raf nate's

556
00:22:20,710 --> 00:22:18,080
dead radio radar and he was told to

557
00:22:22,870 --> 00:22:20,720
speak to the americans so this switch

558
00:22:24,630 --> 00:22:22,880
frequency to raf lakenheath so that the

559
00:22:26,710 --> 00:22:24,640
americans were using the

560
00:22:28,950 --> 00:22:26,720
ground-controlled approach radar because

561
00:22:30,390 --> 00:22:28,960
the object was so near the ground they

562
00:22:31,990 --> 00:22:30,400
couldn't see it on the interception

563
00:22:34,470 --> 00:22:32,000
radar it had dropped

564
00:22:36,390 --> 00:22:34,480
below the horizon that that freddie

565
00:22:37,909 --> 00:22:36,400
could see so they put patched them

566
00:22:40,070 --> 00:22:37,919
through to the americans and perhaps we

567
00:22:42,149 --> 00:22:40,080
ought to let john tell the story what

568
00:22:43,990 --> 00:22:42,159
happened absolutely and i'll just

569
00:22:46,630 --> 00:22:44,000
premise this by saying that these are

570
00:22:48,630 --> 00:22:46,640
clips from 45 minute interviews the the

571
00:22:50,630 --> 00:22:48,640
freddie wimbledon that we heard and this

572
00:22:51,909 --> 00:22:50,640
one from john brady they are in the

573
00:22:53,350 --> 00:22:51,919
description below if you want to hear

574
00:22:55,590 --> 00:22:53,360
the extended interviews and i highly

575
00:23:00,870 --> 00:22:55,600
highly recommend it but let's go ahead

576
00:23:05,270 --> 00:23:03,590
here we go oops

577
00:23:07,750 --> 00:23:05,280
i'm sorry i need to

578
00:23:13,190 --> 00:23:07,760
help if i shared my screen wouldn't it

579
00:23:18,230 --> 00:23:15,350
on the night in question i can remember

580
00:23:21,029 --> 00:23:18,240
some chat immediately prior to scramble

581
00:23:22,710 --> 00:23:21,039
with elitist head and they then they

582
00:23:24,310 --> 00:23:22,720
called for a venom

583
00:23:26,230 --> 00:23:24,320
and um

584
00:23:28,549 --> 00:23:26,240
i think it probably went like water

585
00:23:31,350 --> 00:23:28,559
beach quarterback here one there

586
00:23:32,110 --> 00:23:31,360
scrambled vector sun so cool so and so

587
00:23:34,870 --> 00:23:32,120
on

588
00:23:37,029 --> 00:23:34,880
whatever frequency it was

589
00:23:38,710 --> 00:23:37,039
well we were airborne probably within

590
00:23:42,070 --> 00:23:38,720
two minutes because the

591
00:23:44,230 --> 00:23:42,080
uh then it was a cartridge start

592
00:23:45,669 --> 00:23:44,240
um

593
00:23:47,430 --> 00:23:45,679
startup system

594
00:23:49,430 --> 00:23:47,440
just press the cartridge and you put

595
00:23:51,269 --> 00:23:49,440
this terrific whoosh

596
00:23:53,029 --> 00:23:51,279
from the cartridge gases as it drove the

597
00:23:53,990 --> 00:23:53,039
turbine rattle to start the mechanism

598
00:23:54,950 --> 00:23:54,000
around

599
00:23:56,789 --> 00:23:54,960
um

600
00:23:58,149 --> 00:23:56,799
there's no one going up in a jet we just

601
00:23:59,669 --> 00:23:58,159
roared off

602
00:24:01,350 --> 00:23:59,679
and we think

603
00:24:03,269 --> 00:24:01,360
it's this

604
00:24:05,190 --> 00:24:03,279
but we had a vague idea that the

605
00:24:07,269 --> 00:24:05,200
americans wanted us to go and look at

606
00:24:08,630 --> 00:24:07,279
something well where did that idea come

607
00:24:10,390 --> 00:24:08,640
from well it must have come from

608
00:24:12,390 --> 00:24:10,400
nietzsche said probably the chat saying

609
00:24:14,470 --> 00:24:12,400
the americans want us to want you to go

610
00:24:16,230 --> 00:24:14,480
and look at something they've got i

611
00:24:18,630 --> 00:24:16,240
can't remember

612
00:24:21,029 --> 00:24:18,640
very clearly aren't they anyhow off we

613
00:24:23,590 --> 00:24:21,039
went and called late peace

614
00:24:26,549 --> 00:24:23,600
and they were directing us uh towards

615
00:24:30,310 --> 00:24:26,559
this thing at around 7000 feet the first

616
00:24:33,269 --> 00:24:30,320
run we had at it i saw nothing

617
00:24:35,350 --> 00:24:33,279
the next time we went beyond

618
00:24:37,909 --> 00:24:35,360
um i can remember saying today with

619
00:24:41,029 --> 00:24:37,919
contact and he kept saying what is it i

620
00:24:42,950 --> 00:24:41,039
can't see it as we rush by on each pass

621
00:24:45,269 --> 00:24:42,960
and it would go down

622
00:24:47,830 --> 00:24:45,279
the right hand side or left hand side

623
00:24:49,909 --> 00:24:47,840
preparing which way we went at it and

624
00:24:51,830 --> 00:24:49,919
there would be a little paint like that

625
00:24:54,230 --> 00:24:51,840
and it was fairly obvious that whatever

626
00:24:55,669 --> 00:24:54,240
it was was stationary

627
00:24:57,669 --> 00:24:55,679
there was no movement

628
00:24:58,870 --> 00:24:57,679
and if you remember in that little film

629
00:25:01,029 --> 00:24:58,880
they said well

630
00:25:03,669 --> 00:25:01,039
you intercepted and i have to say you

631
00:25:06,789 --> 00:25:03,679
cannot intercept something that is

632
00:25:07,909 --> 00:25:06,799
stationary which you just can't do

633
00:25:10,230 --> 00:25:07,919
um

634
00:25:20,310 --> 00:25:10,240
but there was something there and when

635
00:25:25,990 --> 00:25:23,909
and it was just this little faint paint

636
00:25:28,710 --> 00:25:26,000
you wouldn't call it a real positive

637
00:25:30,630 --> 00:25:28,720
blip it's the sort of thing i've

638
00:25:32,470 --> 00:25:30,640
seen a met balloon with a radar

639
00:25:35,669 --> 00:25:32,480
reflector on it before

640
00:25:36,710 --> 00:25:35,679
on air 21 and i reckon it was probably

641
00:25:40,549 --> 00:25:36,720
that

642
00:25:42,070 --> 00:25:40,559
um

643
00:25:43,430 --> 00:25:42,080
in the end we just turned around went

644
00:25:44,870 --> 00:25:43,440
back home when

645
00:25:47,830 --> 00:25:44,880
we were getting a bit low and had

646
00:25:50,390 --> 00:25:47,840
several runs at it but uh each time i

647
00:25:52,789 --> 00:25:50,400
would say to david that it's out 45 star

648
00:25:53,830 --> 00:25:52,799
but now at one mile he'd be looking at

649
00:25:57,430 --> 00:25:53,840
me

650
00:25:59,430 --> 00:25:57,440
what is it what is it i don't know

651
00:26:01,830 --> 00:25:59,440
there it was how many rooms did you have

652
00:26:05,029 --> 00:26:01,840
at the target three or four

653
00:26:05,830 --> 00:26:05,039
definitely at what altitude around 7000

654
00:26:07,110 --> 00:26:05,840
feet

655
00:26:09,990 --> 00:26:07,120
and around

656
00:26:12,070 --> 00:26:10,000
300 knots

657
00:26:14,310 --> 00:26:12,080
seven thousand feet quite low really oh

658
00:26:17,029 --> 00:26:14,320
compared to a lot of the interceptions

659
00:26:20,950 --> 00:26:17,039
yes but it cooks out intercept our fuel

660
00:26:26,230 --> 00:26:23,190
which uh government assaulted length of

661
00:26:28,630 --> 00:26:26,240
course we ended in that 50 55 minutes

662
00:26:29,909 --> 00:26:28,640
so you were able to what about 55

663
00:26:34,870 --> 00:26:29,919
minutes

664
00:26:38,710 --> 00:26:36,549
great stuff

665
00:26:45,430 --> 00:26:38,720
on the night in question i can remember

666
00:26:49,590 --> 00:26:47,190
so in that one he mentions he did at one

667
00:26:50,830 --> 00:26:49,600
point think it was this radar balloon

668
00:26:56,149 --> 00:26:50,840
thing

669
00:26:58,950 --> 00:26:56,159
that was i did actually track down the

670
00:27:01,110 --> 00:26:58,960
the diary the squadron diary number 23

671
00:27:03,750 --> 00:27:01,120
squadron which was their squadron and

672
00:27:05,029 --> 00:27:03,760
there's an entry about the um the case

673
00:27:06,710 --> 00:27:05,039
in there and it basically said that

674
00:27:10,070 --> 00:27:06,720
there was all these aircraft were sent

675
00:27:11,110 --> 00:27:10,080
out looking for this mysterious object

676
00:27:14,549 --> 00:27:11,120
um

677
00:27:16,230 --> 00:27:14,559
it was they couldn't work out what it

678
00:27:19,029 --> 00:27:16,240
was and eventually it was concluded it

679
00:27:20,470 --> 00:27:19,039
was a balloon that's all it says in the

680
00:27:21,990 --> 00:27:20,480
squadron diary

681
00:27:24,310 --> 00:27:22,000
but obviously

682
00:27:27,029 --> 00:27:24,320
um there was something more than a

683
00:27:28,549 --> 00:27:27,039
balloon there um because

684
00:27:30,389 --> 00:27:28,559
what freddie saw

685
00:27:32,310 --> 00:27:30,399
clearly wasn't a balloon

686
00:27:34,710 --> 00:27:32,320
and it's i mean it's like with a lot of

687
00:27:36,789 --> 00:27:34,720
ufo incidents like rendlesham and some

688
00:27:38,470 --> 00:27:36,799
of the others it's not impossible that

689
00:27:39,990 --> 00:27:38,480
there was a number of different things

690
00:27:41,430 --> 00:27:40,000
going on

691
00:27:42,950 --> 00:27:41,440
you know that there wasn't just one

692
00:27:44,549 --> 00:27:42,960
thing there may well have been a balloon

693
00:27:46,870 --> 00:27:44,559
floating around around as well that

694
00:27:49,110 --> 00:27:46,880
caused some confusion but clearly what

695
00:27:50,630 --> 00:27:49,120
what was being seen earlier in the night

696
00:27:52,870 --> 00:27:50,640
wasn't a balloon

697
00:27:53,669 --> 00:27:52,880
and um

698
00:27:55,750 --> 00:27:53,679
um

699
00:27:58,310 --> 00:27:55,760
the the the interesting thing about it

700
00:28:00,470 --> 00:27:58,320
is if if there's any astronomers or

701
00:28:04,070 --> 00:28:00,480
people interested in astronomy

702
00:28:06,950 --> 00:28:04,080
um who um are listening to this show

703
00:28:09,110 --> 00:28:06,960
um the 13th or the 14th of august should

704
00:28:10,950 --> 00:28:09,120
spark um something off in your brain and

705
00:28:13,830 --> 00:28:10,960
that is because that is the height of

706
00:28:15,510 --> 00:28:13,840
the perseid meteor shower that that's

707
00:28:16,470 --> 00:28:15,520
the time when the perseids are the most

708
00:28:18,470 --> 00:28:16,480
active

709
00:28:20,070 --> 00:28:18,480
so there's a lot if you read about the

710
00:28:21,909 --> 00:28:20,080
case there's a lot of stories about

711
00:28:23,909 --> 00:28:21,919
people going outside and seeing light

712
00:28:25,830 --> 00:28:23,919
streaking across the sky

713
00:28:28,310 --> 00:28:25,840
so it's quite possible they were the

714
00:28:30,789 --> 00:28:28,320
perseid meteors and

715
00:28:32,549 --> 00:28:30,799
what happens with these cases again like

716
00:28:34,230 --> 00:28:32,559
rendelsham i think it's once people get

717
00:28:36,070 --> 00:28:34,240
it in their heads that there's something

718
00:28:37,269 --> 00:28:36,080
out there there's something flying

719
00:28:39,029 --> 00:28:37,279
around

720
00:28:40,950 --> 00:28:39,039
uh they're sort of broken out of

721
00:28:42,630 --> 00:28:40,960
whatever miasma they're in you know they

722
00:28:45,029 --> 00:28:42,640
might be reading the paper they might be

723
00:28:47,110 --> 00:28:45,039
all you know like like sat in the crew

724
00:28:48,870 --> 00:28:47,120
room waiting for the call

725
00:28:50,310 --> 00:28:48,880
someone tells them there's a ufo they go

726
00:28:51,750 --> 00:28:50,320
outside and maybe there's a balloon

727
00:28:53,990 --> 00:28:51,760
floating around or there's a meteor

728
00:28:55,830 --> 00:28:54,000
streaking overhead that gets all roped

729
00:28:58,149 --> 00:28:55,840
into the story

730
00:29:00,070 --> 00:28:58,159
and it's very easy then to sort of for

731
00:29:02,870 --> 00:29:00,080
skeptics and debunkers disorders like

732
00:29:04,870 --> 00:29:02,880
myself to say what a waste of time you

733
00:29:06,310 --> 00:29:04,880
know that's obviously what it was but

734
00:29:08,230 --> 00:29:06,320
the more you look into it the more you

735
00:29:09,909 --> 00:29:08,240
look at the detail it's clearly

736
00:29:10,950 --> 00:29:09,919
something more than that and they

737
00:29:13,029 --> 00:29:10,960
obviously

738
00:29:14,549 --> 00:29:13,039
the american the air for american air

739
00:29:17,350 --> 00:29:14,559
force and the british air ministry

740
00:29:20,789 --> 00:29:17,360
obviously investigated it in great depth

741
00:29:23,510 --> 00:29:20,799
and i discovered um that the

742
00:29:26,789 --> 00:29:23,520
this is a really involved story the chap

743
00:29:29,510 --> 00:29:26,799
who was the head of 23 squadron at the

744
00:29:31,590 --> 00:29:29,520
time um his book called um

745
00:29:35,750 --> 00:29:31,600
tony davis

746
00:29:38,870 --> 00:29:35,760
um he um was ex he he'd been a rush he'd

747
00:29:42,389 --> 00:29:38,880
been a british spy working for mi6

748
00:29:44,630 --> 00:29:42,399
in budapest before he was he was he was

749
00:29:46,230 --> 00:29:44,640
captured by the russians exchanged sent

750
00:29:47,269 --> 00:29:46,240
back to the uk and they put him in

751
00:29:51,269 --> 00:29:47,279
charge

752
00:29:53,269 --> 00:29:51,279
of um 23 squadron um running the qra and

753
00:29:55,750 --> 00:29:53,279
i looked into his background and he'd

754
00:29:57,669 --> 00:29:55,760
flown in the second world war he'd flown

755
00:30:00,230 --> 00:29:57,679
intruder missions into germany and he'd

756
00:30:01,750 --> 00:30:00,240
actually seen a foo fighter during the

757
00:30:03,269 --> 00:30:01,760
second world voice in one of his

758
00:30:05,510 --> 00:30:03,279
logbooks

759
00:30:08,230 --> 00:30:05,520
and the bizarre thing was

760
00:30:09,909 --> 00:30:08,240
and this is still blows my brain when i

761
00:30:11,269 --> 00:30:09,919
fight when i when i

762
00:30:13,190 --> 00:30:11,279
think about this

763
00:30:15,830 --> 00:30:13,200
in 1972

764
00:30:18,149 --> 00:30:15,840
he became the head of the ministry of

765
00:30:19,909 --> 00:30:18,159
defense's ufo desk

766
00:30:22,470 --> 00:30:19,919
anthony davis

767
00:30:25,590 --> 00:30:22,480
what year was that

768
00:30:28,230 --> 00:30:25,600
1972 when when he'd retired from sort of

769
00:30:29,830 --> 00:30:28,240
military service they brought him back

770
00:30:31,430 --> 00:30:29,840
obviously because he knew something

771
00:30:33,669 --> 00:30:31,440
about ufos

772
00:30:35,750 --> 00:30:33,679
and about he'd been they knew he'd been

773
00:30:38,149 --> 00:30:35,760
involved in this waking heath case and

774
00:30:41,350 --> 00:30:38,159
they gave him the job as as head of the

775
00:30:43,750 --> 00:30:41,360
ufo desk at whitehall is this the same

776
00:30:47,430 --> 00:30:43,760
level as owen hartwell and nick pope

777
00:30:50,470 --> 00:30:47,440
kind of no above that level so more di55

778
00:30:52,389 --> 00:30:50,480
type yeah yeah yeah yeah and and when

779
00:30:54,149 --> 00:30:52,399
you look at the files as i have done for

780
00:30:56,070 --> 00:30:54,159
that period when he was um running the

781
00:30:57,990 --> 00:30:56,080
desk there were people who had obviously

782
00:31:00,230 --> 00:30:58,000
read about the case

783
00:31:01,669 --> 00:31:00,240
uh in the condon report that had been

784
00:31:04,389 --> 00:31:01,679
published by the americans who were

785
00:31:06,310 --> 00:31:04,399
writing into the ufo desk at the time

786
00:31:07,830 --> 00:31:06,320
saying what do you know about it and in

787
00:31:09,350 --> 00:31:07,840
one of the letters he writes back he

788
00:31:12,070 --> 00:31:09,360
says well i know about it because i was

789
00:31:14,230 --> 00:31:12,080
flying one of the aircraft

790
00:31:16,070 --> 00:31:14,240
that's amazing he doesn't say any more

791
00:31:17,509 --> 00:31:16,080
he's so frustrated

792
00:31:20,310 --> 00:31:17,519
and he

793
00:31:22,630 --> 00:31:20,320
he died in 1988 so i was never able to

794
00:31:23,990 --> 00:31:22,640
um speak to him because it was before i

795
00:31:25,990 --> 00:31:24,000
started looking into this but he

796
00:31:28,070 --> 00:31:26,000
obviously knew an awful lot

797
00:31:30,950 --> 00:31:28,080
about it and graham schofield who is the

798
00:31:33,509 --> 00:31:30,960
next person we um

799
00:31:35,509 --> 00:31:33,519
we need to play he he knew tony davis

800
00:31:36,950 --> 00:31:35,519
and he he knew that tony davis had

801
00:31:39,669 --> 00:31:36,960
looked into the incident and

802
00:31:42,549 --> 00:31:39,679
investigated it and there was something

803
00:31:45,269 --> 00:31:42,559
uh definitely sort of unexplained about

804
00:31:47,190 --> 00:31:45,279
it it wasn't a balloon basically

805
00:31:49,350 --> 00:31:47,200
um and we should say that um graeme

806
00:31:50,630 --> 00:31:49,360
schofield was the navigator of another

807
00:31:53,750 --> 00:31:50,640
venom

808
00:31:56,549 --> 00:31:53,760
and quite early in the evening before

809
00:31:58,470 --> 00:31:56,559
um logan went out in his venom he'd been

810
00:32:01,350 --> 00:31:58,480
scrambled i think about half past nine

811
00:32:03,350 --> 00:32:01,360
when the first ufos had been seen at

812
00:32:05,830 --> 00:32:03,360
bentwaters and he went up

813
00:32:08,070 --> 00:32:05,840
um in this um venom

814
00:32:10,789 --> 00:32:08,080
from uh water beach and before they

815
00:32:13,350 --> 00:32:10,799
could get very far in the sky i think

816
00:32:15,350 --> 00:32:13,360
the wing fuel tank fell off

817
00:32:17,190 --> 00:32:15,360
and crashed into a field near cambridge

818
00:32:17,830 --> 00:32:17,200
again all covered up there was no sort

819
00:32:18,870 --> 00:32:17,840
of

820
00:32:20,470 --> 00:32:18,880
public

821
00:32:22,630 --> 00:32:20,480
story about this but this is what he

822
00:32:24,310 --> 00:32:22,640
said and they had to return to base so

823
00:32:26,710 --> 00:32:24,320
they couldn't actually get anywhere near

824
00:32:29,430 --> 00:32:26,720
this ufo that was being tracked at half

825
00:32:31,350 --> 00:32:29,440
past nine so quite frank he was really

826
00:32:33,669 --> 00:32:31,360
frustrated about this and he ended up

827
00:32:35,669 --> 00:32:33,679
back in the um in the guard room i think

828
00:32:38,070 --> 00:32:35,679
he was with all the other pilots and

829
00:32:38,950 --> 00:32:38,080
navigators gathered round a little radio

830
00:32:41,430 --> 00:32:38,960
set

831
00:32:43,029 --> 00:32:41,440
and they were listening to the radio and

832
00:32:44,710 --> 00:32:43,039
listening to what was going on in the

833
00:32:46,710 --> 00:32:44,720
sky with all these other aircraft being

834
00:32:49,029 --> 00:32:46,720
scrambled one after the other

835
00:32:50,870 --> 00:32:49,039
by um my anita said to go and have a

836
00:32:52,470 --> 00:32:50,880
look so perhaps we ought to play what

837
00:32:53,909 --> 00:32:52,480
graeme scofield will say let's get that

838
00:32:55,350 --> 00:32:53,919
one up i will just say i've got a few

839
00:32:57,110 --> 00:32:55,360
people who have asked questions and i've

840
00:32:59,350 --> 00:32:57,120
i've noted them so when we finish

841
00:33:01,190 --> 00:32:59,360
watching this and we'll talk about it i

842
00:33:03,029 --> 00:33:01,200
will get to your questions

843
00:33:04,070 --> 00:33:03,039
after that guys so

844
00:33:10,470 --> 00:33:04,080
let's

845
00:33:14,230 --> 00:33:12,230
but i mean i knew these guys very well

846
00:33:17,350 --> 00:33:14,240
so they they were okay you know they

847
00:33:19,190 --> 00:33:17,360
knew their jobs and the um

848
00:33:20,710 --> 00:33:19,200
the radar at that time was sufficiently

849
00:33:22,470 --> 00:33:20,720
good that if you got a blip you knew

850
00:33:23,909 --> 00:33:22,480
what it was you know identified you

851
00:33:25,029 --> 00:33:23,919
could see it you know it was a

852
00:33:27,830 --> 00:33:25,039
particular

853
00:33:28,789 --> 00:33:27,840
size so you you would not really be

854
00:33:32,870 --> 00:33:28,799
um

855
00:33:35,029 --> 00:33:32,880
meteorological phenomena or something

856
00:33:36,630 --> 00:33:35,039
like that and anything that could catch

857
00:33:39,909 --> 00:33:36,640
you might be a balloon or something yeah

858
00:33:41,509 --> 00:33:39,919
that's which is always the possibility

859
00:33:43,590 --> 00:33:41,519
but um

860
00:33:45,110 --> 00:33:43,600
but i believe these guys did get the

861
00:33:46,950 --> 00:33:45,120
scramble did you get the intercept did

862
00:33:47,909 --> 00:33:46,960
say what they said and so on and so

863
00:33:48,710 --> 00:33:47,919
forth

864
00:33:50,549 --> 00:33:48,720
still

865
00:33:54,470 --> 00:33:50,559
stick with that

866
00:34:00,789 --> 00:33:58,310
okay well the the venomwood it was a um

867
00:34:04,149 --> 00:34:00,799
a twin seat uh aircraft where the pilot

868
00:34:06,950 --> 00:34:04,159
navigator side by side and in the front

869
00:34:09,829 --> 00:34:06,960
of the seat virtually the whole area was

870
00:34:12,389 --> 00:34:09,839
made up of a radome which would have a

871
00:34:15,750 --> 00:34:12,399
radar uh

872
00:34:17,510 --> 00:34:15,760
unit probably about um three and a half

873
00:34:19,270 --> 00:34:17,520
three foot six

874
00:34:20,790 --> 00:34:19,280
wide the um

875
00:34:21,909 --> 00:34:20,800
the the

876
00:34:24,550 --> 00:34:21,919
um

877
00:34:26,389 --> 00:34:24,560
diameter of the uh of the actual screen

878
00:34:28,629 --> 00:34:26,399
and this was uh adjusted so they could

879
00:34:30,629 --> 00:34:28,639
move in every every direction so get out

880
00:34:31,510 --> 00:34:30,639
go up go down go left go right

881
00:34:33,589 --> 00:34:31,520
and

882
00:34:35,669 --> 00:34:33,599
that was connected to the radar

883
00:34:38,310 --> 00:34:35,679
equipment and the joystick which the

884
00:34:40,869 --> 00:34:38,320
navigator would work to position the the

885
00:34:43,750 --> 00:34:40,879
radar in in place now in addition to

886
00:34:45,589 --> 00:34:43,760
that obviously it had a um

887
00:34:48,470 --> 00:34:45,599
a crt display very similar to a

888
00:34:50,470 --> 00:34:48,480
television which would give you a um a

889
00:34:53,430 --> 00:34:50,480
probe of light which would go across so

890
00:34:55,430 --> 00:34:53,440
the object of the exercise was to point

891
00:34:57,750 --> 00:34:55,440
your radar into the direction you

892
00:35:00,550 --> 00:34:57,760
thought the enemy aircraft would come

893
00:35:03,030 --> 00:35:00,560
and then by a series of calibrations you

894
00:35:04,550 --> 00:35:03,040
could measure its distance its track

895
00:35:06,470 --> 00:35:04,560
yeah his positioning and things like

896
00:35:10,069 --> 00:35:06,480
that it would appear on the on the

897
00:35:12,870 --> 00:35:10,079
screen as a very fine line

898
00:35:15,109 --> 00:35:12,880
and uh from the line and the recipe you

899
00:35:16,630 --> 00:35:15,119
could determine you know broadly what

900
00:35:22,550 --> 00:35:16,640
its characteristics are it was being

901
00:35:26,470 --> 00:35:24,470
um so we were not aware that we were

902
00:35:28,310 --> 00:35:26,480
other than just scrambled for either a

903
00:35:30,790 --> 00:35:28,320
trial or something like that but we got

904
00:35:34,069 --> 00:35:30,800
off the ground and immediately we would

905
00:35:36,470 --> 00:35:34,079
do a maximum rate uh climb away from

906
00:35:38,069 --> 00:35:36,480
base climbing turn and then onto your

907
00:35:38,950 --> 00:35:38,079
vector and go through

908
00:35:41,109 --> 00:35:38,960
um

909
00:35:44,310 --> 00:35:41,119
and this this climb would take you all

910
00:35:46,870 --> 00:35:44,320
of 15 15 minutes something like that now

911
00:35:48,630 --> 00:35:46,880
we would be it was dark we were no

912
00:35:50,230 --> 00:35:48,640
navigation lights so it would be very

913
00:35:52,390 --> 00:35:50,240
very quiet very still you know we would

914
00:35:57,990 --> 00:35:52,400
just be getting out to height and

915
00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:00,790
now

916
00:36:04,630 --> 00:36:02,550
i can't remember i don't think they did

917
00:36:07,349 --> 00:36:04,640
more than one pass each right i think

918
00:36:09,670 --> 00:36:07,359
they were then they were then called off

919
00:36:12,950 --> 00:36:09,680
um did they sound

920
00:36:15,190 --> 00:36:12,960
excited oh yes yes yeah yeah they were

921
00:36:17,270 --> 00:36:15,200
they were speaking very tensely because

922
00:36:19,589 --> 00:36:17,280
well partly because

923
00:36:22,150 --> 00:36:19,599
you're on a collision course

924
00:36:23,829 --> 00:36:22,160
you can't sing in front of you and what

925
00:36:25,270 --> 00:36:23,839
they hadn't figured was that the thing

926
00:36:27,270 --> 00:36:25,280
was stationary

927
00:36:28,150 --> 00:36:27,280
it would be most unusual to have an

928
00:36:29,750 --> 00:36:28,160
aircraft well it couldn't have an

929
00:36:31,190 --> 00:36:29,760
aircraft it was stationary right and

930
00:36:33,510 --> 00:36:31,200
therefore there were two things that

931
00:36:36,630 --> 00:36:33,520
that were distinct

932
00:36:38,950 --> 00:36:36,640
one is the rate of of approach

933
00:36:41,510 --> 00:36:38,960
now the rate of approach normally is

934
00:36:43,750 --> 00:36:41,520
exceedingly fast if you are on collision

935
00:36:46,470 --> 00:36:43,760
courses opposite direction so you want

936
00:36:50,230 --> 00:36:46,480
to tell that reasonably clearly

937
00:36:52,470 --> 00:36:50,240
you would normally

938
00:36:54,950 --> 00:36:52,480
expect therefore the aircraft in in

939
00:36:57,109 --> 00:36:54,960
front of you to be moving in you know

940
00:36:58,790 --> 00:36:57,119
various directions and you would try to

941
00:37:00,150 --> 00:36:58,800
harmonize your speed with the speed of

942
00:37:00,870 --> 00:37:00,160
the aircraft yeah

943
00:37:03,190 --> 00:37:00,880
so

944
00:37:05,109 --> 00:37:03,200
one of the things which uh

945
00:37:07,430 --> 00:37:05,119
is extremely difficult with the

946
00:37:09,589 --> 00:37:07,440
navigator and is trying to define what

947
00:37:11,990 --> 00:37:09,599
the speed is so you can get the

948
00:37:13,430 --> 00:37:12,000
the pilot to reduce be sufficient to to

949
00:37:15,190 --> 00:37:13,440
come in line because you don't want to

950
00:37:17,750 --> 00:37:15,200
come in like a train you want to come in

951
00:37:19,430 --> 00:37:17,760
slowly and sit behind it identify it and

952
00:37:22,150 --> 00:37:19,440
then if necessary you should get down at

953
00:37:24,069 --> 00:37:22,160
that point so the navigator's got a

954
00:37:25,190 --> 00:37:24,079
number of um

955
00:37:27,109 --> 00:37:25,200
uh

956
00:37:28,870 --> 00:37:27,119
methods of doing that one of which is to

957
00:37:31,030 --> 00:37:28,880
slap on your air brakes which is like

958
00:37:31,750 --> 00:37:31,040
stopping you dead dead in the air right

959
00:37:33,030 --> 00:37:31,760
but

960
00:37:35,030 --> 00:37:33,040
you've got to be very careful when you

961
00:37:36,630 --> 00:37:35,040
do that because if you overshoot you

962
00:37:38,150 --> 00:37:36,640
stop dating in front of the money we're

963
00:37:40,870 --> 00:37:38,160
trying to sketch

964
00:37:42,390 --> 00:37:40,880
that's not very clever but i didn't ever

965
00:37:43,829 --> 00:37:42,400
hear anything about air brakes i didn't

966
00:37:47,190 --> 00:37:43,839
hear anything about

967
00:37:53,829 --> 00:37:49,910
and frankly when you're looking to be

968
00:37:55,829 --> 00:37:53,839
inspected onto um a russian bomber flag

969
00:37:58,710 --> 00:37:55,839
600 knots the last thing you're

970
00:38:01,030 --> 00:37:58,720
expecting is going to be stationary

971
00:38:04,790 --> 00:38:01,040
almost on the deck so i suspect there

972
00:38:06,470 --> 00:38:04,800
was a mental process involved here that

973
00:38:08,230 --> 00:38:06,480
so it would have been obvious to you

974
00:38:09,430 --> 00:38:08,240
listening though that this wasn't your

975
00:38:11,349 --> 00:38:09,440
ordinary

976
00:38:14,390 --> 00:38:11,359
yeah it's interception exactly what's

977
00:38:16,230 --> 00:38:14,400
going on yes yes and i i seem to

978
00:38:18,470 --> 00:38:16,240
remember this is the bit when i may have

979
00:38:20,710 --> 00:38:18,480
made this up but i seem to remember

980
00:38:22,310 --> 00:38:20,720
the pilot saying the second pilot saying

981
00:38:24,150 --> 00:38:22,320
he is right behind us

982
00:38:26,870 --> 00:38:24,160
right that's a crucial that's that's

983
00:38:28,470 --> 00:38:26,880
what i what i have in mind because

984
00:38:29,589 --> 00:38:28,480
that's the thing that sent the shivers

985
00:38:30,470 --> 00:38:29,599
up her back

986
00:38:32,470 --> 00:38:30,480
because

987
00:38:34,710 --> 00:38:32,480
you know one thing it's one thing to be

988
00:38:36,630 --> 00:38:34,720
attacking somebody else but if they're

989
00:38:38,870 --> 00:38:36,640
right behind you attacking you you

990
00:38:40,950 --> 00:38:38,880
really begin to wonder in order to say

991
00:38:42,310 --> 00:38:40,960
that because they didn't have any arrear

992
00:38:43,589 --> 00:38:42,320
that was looking behind they must have

993
00:38:48,230 --> 00:38:43,599
just assumed that because they must have

994
00:38:52,870 --> 00:38:49,990
so someone over listening to that on the

995
00:38:54,230 --> 00:38:52,880
radio on the ground would may have

996
00:38:56,150 --> 00:38:54,240
jumped to the conclusion that perhaps it

997
00:38:58,550 --> 00:38:56,160
circled around the back rather than the

998
00:39:02,710 --> 00:38:58,560
overshot exactly yeah yes i mean it

999
00:39:06,310 --> 00:39:04,630
who knows there was something there

1000
00:39:08,630 --> 00:39:06,320
navigators told him he's just in front

1001
00:39:10,230 --> 00:39:08,640
of you and he's gone beyond it and then

1002
00:39:11,030 --> 00:39:10,240
he's saying right he's just behind me

1003
00:39:13,190 --> 00:39:11,040
though

1004
00:39:15,109 --> 00:39:13,200
so that's that's the bit that really

1005
00:39:16,710 --> 00:39:15,119
fixed our minds and then we started

1006
00:39:20,069 --> 00:39:16,720
saying what could this be what is this

1007
00:39:21,750 --> 00:39:20,079
likely to be uh is this a ufo is this or

1008
00:39:23,109 --> 00:39:21,760
something and it was in our crew that we

1009
00:39:25,670 --> 00:39:23,119
would be discussing so that would be the

1010
00:39:28,950 --> 00:39:25,680
first time that ufo yeah we never knew

1011
00:39:31,349 --> 00:39:28,960
anyway yeah anywhere else yeah and uh

1012
00:39:33,589 --> 00:39:31,359
you know back went on until such time as

1013
00:39:35,109 --> 00:39:33,599
the crews returned which was quite soon

1014
00:39:36,950 --> 00:39:35,119
after these incidents they didn't hang

1015
00:39:39,750 --> 00:39:36,960
about they were infected straight back

1016
00:39:41,430 --> 00:39:39,760
to base they landed they came out came

1017
00:39:43,430 --> 00:39:41,440
into the crew room

1018
00:39:45,270 --> 00:39:43,440
tremendous amount of banter and jives

1019
00:39:47,589 --> 00:39:45,280
you know what's happened to you seen any

1020
00:39:50,870 --> 00:39:47,599
little green men and all the usual you

1021
00:39:52,870 --> 00:39:50,880
know jokes but the serious content was

1022
00:39:55,670 --> 00:39:52,880
something that actually happened and all

1023
00:39:58,069 --> 00:39:55,680
of us were thoughtful about um

1024
00:39:59,030 --> 00:39:58,079
quite what it was all about

1025
00:40:01,670 --> 00:39:59,040
but

1026
00:40:03,510 --> 00:40:01,680
to be quite frank it didn't register to

1027
00:40:06,390 --> 00:40:03,520
the extent that we all thought we were

1028
00:40:07,990 --> 00:40:06,400
part of a major incident we had not at

1029
00:40:10,710 --> 00:40:08,000
that time been aware that the americans

1030
00:40:11,910 --> 00:40:10,720
had been involved uh to us it was

1031
00:40:13,510 --> 00:40:11,920
something that happened on a particular

1032
00:40:14,870 --> 00:40:13,520
line tomorrow was another day when we're

1033
00:40:17,030 --> 00:40:14,880
gonna get on without you

1034
00:40:19,829 --> 00:40:17,040
do the various things so

1035
00:40:22,230 --> 00:40:19,839
that's really why our input is somewhat

1036
00:40:25,510 --> 00:40:22,240
limited in terms of the the overall

1037
00:40:29,430 --> 00:40:27,430
yeah i mean that that really brings it

1038
00:40:31,510 --> 00:40:29,440
home in what he said at the end there

1039
00:40:33,109 --> 00:40:31,520
graham about how the fact that they were

1040
00:40:34,150 --> 00:40:33,119
all operating in their own little

1041
00:40:35,829 --> 00:40:34,160
bubbles

1042
00:40:37,589 --> 00:40:35,839
and because of it being everything was

1043
00:40:39,670 --> 00:40:37,599
covered by the official secret act no

1044
00:40:42,550 --> 00:40:39,680
one was supposed to talk to anyone else

1045
00:40:43,589 --> 00:40:42,560
so the americans knew their part of the

1046
00:40:46,630 --> 00:40:43,599
story

1047
00:40:48,230 --> 00:40:46,640
um the the the radar people knew part of

1048
00:40:50,870 --> 00:40:48,240
that that their part of the story and

1049
00:40:52,550 --> 00:40:50,880
then the pilots knew their bits of the

1050
00:40:55,190 --> 00:40:52,560
story and because

1051
00:40:56,870 --> 00:40:55,200
over the years um some of them have died

1052
00:40:59,589 --> 00:40:56,880
um a lot of the records the written

1053
00:41:01,430 --> 00:40:59,599
records have been destroyed or dispersed

1054
00:41:03,589 --> 00:41:01,440
it's been like putting a jigsaw puzzle

1055
00:41:06,069 --> 00:41:03,599
together and i i spent literally it must

1056
00:41:10,390 --> 00:41:06,079
have been like 15 years working on this

1057
00:41:12,150 --> 00:41:10,400
story from about 1995 to about uh 2010

1058
00:41:13,670 --> 00:41:12,160
tracking people down and they were

1059
00:41:15,510 --> 00:41:13,680
literally in the last few years of their

1060
00:41:17,750 --> 00:41:15,520
lives some of them but i do think it's

1061
00:41:18,710 --> 00:41:17,760
an incredible story and and just just to

1062
00:41:20,790 --> 00:41:18,720
read

1063
00:41:23,910 --> 00:41:20,800
gordon thayer who wrote this up for the

1064
00:41:26,790 --> 00:41:23,920
colorado um university the the the

1065
00:41:28,710 --> 00:41:26,800
condone study he was a radar expert and

1066
00:41:30,150 --> 00:41:28,720
he concluded

1067
00:41:32,950 --> 00:41:30,160
the line in the study says the

1068
00:41:35,990 --> 00:41:32,960
apparently rational intelligent behavior

1069
00:41:37,990 --> 00:41:36,000
of the ufo suggests a mechanical device

1070
00:41:41,109 --> 00:41:38,000
of unknown origin as the most probable

1071
00:41:43,589 --> 00:41:41,119
explanation for this sighting now

1072
00:41:44,950 --> 00:41:43,599
when people think of the condom study

1073
00:41:47,190 --> 00:41:44,960
they tend to think this is a complete

1074
00:41:48,870 --> 00:41:47,200
debunking exercise and you know we don't

1075
00:41:52,309 --> 00:41:48,880
even need to think about it but he does

1076
00:41:55,030 --> 00:41:52,319
actually say that and that is the one uk

1077
00:41:56,550 --> 00:41:55,040
incident that's that that's in that

1078
00:41:57,910 --> 00:41:56,560
american study

1079
00:41:59,829 --> 00:41:57,920
and

1080
00:42:02,630 --> 00:41:59,839
clearly something must have gone on

1081
00:42:03,910 --> 00:42:02,640
because i i've got to say i haven't i in

1082
00:42:05,910 --> 00:42:03,920
all the work that i've done in the

1083
00:42:08,230 --> 00:42:05,920
british archives

1084
00:42:11,109 --> 00:42:08,240
they have literally gone through and

1085
00:42:14,069 --> 00:42:11,119
removed and destroyed every single trace

1086
00:42:15,589 --> 00:42:14,079
um of this incident there is one single

1087
00:42:18,150 --> 00:42:15,599
mention of it in a

1088
00:42:19,750 --> 00:42:18,160
in a briefing from 1957 and this was

1089
00:42:21,349 --> 00:42:19,760
simply because one of the defense

1090
00:42:24,309 --> 00:42:21,359
ministers had asked

1091
00:42:26,870 --> 00:42:24,319
the ufo desk at that time um to spell

1092
00:42:28,390 --> 00:42:26,880
out the incidents from 1956 and they

1093
00:42:30,710 --> 00:42:28,400
make a mention of there was this

1094
00:42:32,630 --> 00:42:30,720
incident at lakenheath where an object

1095
00:42:34,870 --> 00:42:32,640
was seen on radar at a high altitude

1096
00:42:37,750 --> 00:42:34,880
they sent an aircraft to investigate but

1097
00:42:39,750 --> 00:42:37,760
nothing was seen by the aircraft which i

1098
00:42:41,829 --> 00:42:39,760
suppose is true

1099
00:42:44,550 --> 00:42:41,839
but it's the actual bare bones of what

1100
00:42:46,150 --> 00:42:44,560
happened

1101
00:42:47,829 --> 00:42:46,160
absolutely now one thing i wanted to

1102
00:42:49,910 --> 00:42:47,839
show people is just to get an idea we

1103
00:42:51,990 --> 00:42:49,920
keep hearing about these different bases

1104
00:42:53,990 --> 00:42:52,000
lake and heath bend waters and that if i

1105
00:42:57,030 --> 00:42:54,000
bring up a map and we can kind of get an

1106
00:42:59,430 --> 00:42:57,040
idea of the kind of area of of the uk

1107
00:43:01,990 --> 00:42:59,440
it's a bit blurry but i'm sure we can we

1108
00:43:03,670 --> 00:43:02,000
can do it yeah that's pretty clear so

1109
00:43:06,470 --> 00:43:03,680
you can see here if you can see my

1110
00:43:07,990 --> 00:43:06,480
cursor you've got lake and heath here

1111
00:43:09,910 --> 00:43:08,000
and then up to the right we've got

1112
00:43:11,430 --> 00:43:09,920
anita's head near the coast

1113
00:43:13,109 --> 00:43:11,440
and then down in the right corner we've

1114
00:43:14,950 --> 00:43:13,119
got bent waters so this is the kind of

1115
00:43:17,510 --> 00:43:14,960
the east anglia area really isn't it of

1116
00:43:19,510 --> 00:43:17,520
the uk yeah so ben waters and ipswich is

1117
00:43:20,710 --> 00:43:19,520
where people will be familiar with the

1118
00:43:22,790 --> 00:43:20,720
rendlesham

1119
00:43:25,510 --> 00:43:22,800
bentwater's woodbridge down in the

1120
00:43:27,990 --> 00:43:25,520
southwest corner of east anglia so niti

1121
00:43:30,069 --> 00:43:28,000
said where freddie wimbledon was

1122
00:43:32,550 --> 00:43:30,079
um is right up on the coast on the

1123
00:43:34,870 --> 00:43:32,560
flattest part of the coast which is why

1124
00:43:36,870 --> 00:43:34,880
the radar station's there and there's a

1125
00:43:37,510 --> 00:43:36,880
there's an actual radar museum there now

1126
00:43:39,430 --> 00:43:37,520
if

1127
00:43:41,670 --> 00:43:39,440
you go there it's actually

1128
00:43:43,829 --> 00:43:41,680
you can actually go in the radar room as

1129
00:43:46,230 --> 00:43:43,839
it was in the 1950s so you can sort of

1130
00:43:48,790 --> 00:43:46,240
imagine yourself um as freddie wimbledon

1131
00:43:50,470 --> 00:43:48,800
would have seen it at the time

1132
00:43:52,870 --> 00:43:50,480
yeah that's pretty interesting but it

1133
00:43:54,550 --> 00:43:52,880
just gives a good impression as to

1134
00:43:57,270 --> 00:43:54,560
peace in the like you said the puzzles

1135
00:43:59,030 --> 00:43:57,280
you know and the bases and stuff ah mr

1136
00:44:00,870 --> 00:43:59,040
graham rendell's in the chat lake and

1137
00:44:02,710 --> 00:44:00,880
heath and mildenhall are pretty close to

1138
00:44:04,790 --> 00:44:02,720
each other yeah ben waters and wood

1139
00:44:08,309 --> 00:44:04,800
bridges circus overlap

1140
00:44:10,069 --> 00:44:08,319
irc i'm not sure what that means

1141
00:44:12,790 --> 00:44:10,079
i'm sure they'll explain

1142
00:44:14,470 --> 00:44:12,800
yeah good to see you graeme anyway um

1143
00:44:16,230 --> 00:44:14,480
let's just say that one thing i thought

1144
00:44:18,550 --> 00:44:16,240
might be good to go and i'm not gonna

1145
00:44:19,510 --> 00:44:18,560
spend much time on it is just to look at

1146
00:44:21,589 --> 00:44:19,520
the

1147
00:44:24,069 --> 00:44:21,599
blue book files on it

1148
00:44:25,190 --> 00:44:24,079
just to show people that it was taken

1149
00:44:28,390 --> 00:44:25,200
you know

1150
00:44:31,270 --> 00:44:28,400
kind of seriously so this is a

1151
00:44:33,430 --> 00:44:31,280
you know these are i'll scroll through

1152
00:44:36,470 --> 00:44:33,440
these are all

1153
00:44:39,589 --> 00:44:36,480
documents drawings of the radar yep

1154
00:44:41,670 --> 00:44:39,599
showing the path of the object and

1155
00:44:42,470 --> 00:44:41,680
a lot of this is dr j allen heinrich as

1156
00:44:43,349 --> 00:44:42,480
well

1157
00:44:44,710 --> 00:44:43,359
yeah

1158
00:44:47,430 --> 00:44:44,720
you know he was asked to give an opinion

1159
00:44:49,270 --> 00:44:47,440
on it i think even fred whipple was was

1160
00:44:51,270 --> 00:44:49,280
one of the famous astronomers at the

1161
00:44:53,190 --> 00:44:51,280
time was asked to give an opinion but

1162
00:44:55,670 --> 00:44:53,200
this was all what you're seeing there

1163
00:44:57,030 --> 00:44:55,680
was all top secret no one had access to

1164
00:44:59,190 --> 00:44:57,040
it outside

1165
00:45:01,030 --> 00:44:59,200
the us air force

1166
00:45:03,349 --> 00:45:01,040
and these are a lot of these are or most

1167
00:45:06,550 --> 00:45:03,359
of them are air force documents as well

1168
00:45:08,309 --> 00:45:06,560
yeah so there you go

1169
00:45:10,630 --> 00:45:08,319
talking about meteors and space

1170
00:45:11,910 --> 00:45:10,640
anomalies and all sorts of things but

1171
00:45:13,510 --> 00:45:11,920
yeah like you said these were all

1172
00:45:16,470 --> 00:45:13,520
classified files that have obviously

1173
00:45:18,470 --> 00:45:16,480
since become unclassified but yeah

1174
00:45:20,069 --> 00:45:18,480
it just adds weight to the story there

1175
00:45:21,670 --> 00:45:20,079
we have another image of the radar

1176
00:45:23,430 --> 00:45:21,680
tracks and things

1177
00:45:26,470 --> 00:45:23,440
i mean it doesn't make a lot of sense

1178
00:45:29,349 --> 00:45:26,480
really to me um but it just adds to this

1179
00:45:30,309 --> 00:45:29,359
weight of information and that so i

1180
00:45:31,910 --> 00:45:30,319
thought that would just be worth

1181
00:45:33,670 --> 00:45:31,920
checking out um i haven't linked that

1182
00:45:34,710 --> 00:45:33,680
anywhere yet but what i'll do is along

1183
00:45:37,349 --> 00:45:34,720
with the

1184
00:45:38,870 --> 00:45:37,359
full interviews i'll link the blue book

1185
00:45:40,950 --> 00:45:38,880
documents i'll give a shout out to sean

1186
00:45:42,470 --> 00:45:40,960
rash witness citizen for sending me

1187
00:45:43,190 --> 00:45:42,480
those when he knew that i was going to

1188
00:45:44,829 --> 00:45:43,200
be

1189
00:45:47,910 --> 00:45:44,839
covering this case

1190
00:45:49,510 --> 00:45:47,920
um ah what about the artist impressions

1191
00:45:51,510 --> 00:45:49,520
should we show that now as well do you

1192
00:45:54,390 --> 00:45:51,520
want to talk about this good um yeah

1193
00:45:57,510 --> 00:45:54,400
hilary evans um he was very big in

1194
00:45:59,109 --> 00:45:57,520
ufology in the 1980s and 90s he

1195
00:46:00,630 --> 00:45:59,119
he ran a picture library in london

1196
00:46:02,150 --> 00:46:00,640
called the mary evans picture library

1197
00:46:04,230 --> 00:46:02,160
which some people may have heard of and

1198
00:46:07,190 --> 00:46:04,240
he did a wonderful children's book

1199
00:46:08,870 --> 00:46:07,200
on ufos um in the 1990s which had these

1200
00:46:09,750 --> 00:46:08,880
wonderful artists impressions and there

1201
00:46:11,829 --> 00:46:09,760
was a

1202
00:46:13,670 --> 00:46:11,839
a chapter on lake and heath bend waters

1203
00:46:15,430 --> 00:46:13,680
where he got this you can see there

1204
00:46:17,109 --> 00:46:15,440
there's sort of like a

1205
00:46:19,109 --> 00:46:17,119
almost like a palance where he's got

1206
00:46:22,230 --> 00:46:19,119
lots of bits from the story so he's got

1207
00:46:24,230 --> 00:46:22,240
the um he's got the radar people peering

1208
00:46:26,470 --> 00:46:24,240
at the screen he's got the blurry light

1209
00:46:28,870 --> 00:46:26,480
in the sky i think you can see a

1210
00:46:30,870 --> 00:46:28,880
venom up there somewhere yeah above the

1211
00:46:32,710 --> 00:46:30,880
light yeah yeah and he's got the airmen

1212
00:46:34,790 --> 00:46:32,720
sort of pointing at the sky and the

1213
00:46:36,710 --> 00:46:34,800
hangers i just thought that really sums

1214
00:46:38,550 --> 00:46:36,720
up the case really well

1215
00:46:40,550 --> 00:46:38,560
yeah absolutely

1216
00:46:42,309 --> 00:46:40,560
but the key but the main the main thing

1217
00:46:43,990 --> 00:46:42,319
about the case that makes it stand out i

1218
00:46:45,990 --> 00:46:44,000
think is the action bit

1219
00:46:47,829 --> 00:46:46,000
that brady and scofield were talking

1220
00:46:49,750 --> 00:46:47,839
about you know the bit where

1221
00:46:51,190 --> 00:46:49,760
that bit where the tension was rising

1222
00:46:53,990 --> 00:46:51,200
and you can just imagine if you were in

1223
00:46:55,990 --> 00:46:54,000
one of those venoms there's no light you

1224
00:46:57,430 --> 00:46:56,000
you you've got your pilot who's sort of

1225
00:47:00,069 --> 00:46:57,440
bombing along

1226
00:47:02,550 --> 00:47:00,079
um in fact the pilot um

1227
00:47:04,870 --> 00:47:02,560
david brady who was the pilot when um

1228
00:47:06,790 --> 00:47:04,880
brady was um david chambers was the

1229
00:47:09,430 --> 00:47:06,800
pilot and he was called david hell for

1230
00:47:11,190 --> 00:47:09,440
leather chambers that was his nickname

1231
00:47:13,589 --> 00:47:11,200
so he was like bombing along and you can

1232
00:47:15,109 --> 00:47:13,599
imagine brady sat next to him peering at

1233
00:47:15,910 --> 00:47:15,119
this radar screen

1234
00:47:24,870 --> 00:47:15,920
and

1235
00:47:26,230 --> 00:47:24,880
from the ground it's behind you it's

1236
00:47:28,069 --> 00:47:26,240
behind you and you can imagine that

1237
00:47:30,230 --> 00:47:28,079
scofield and the others down on the

1238
00:47:31,990 --> 00:47:30,240
ground listening to this and hearing

1239
00:47:34,390 --> 00:47:32,000
this rising tension

1240
00:47:36,069 --> 00:47:34,400
that's the bit of the story i think that

1241
00:47:37,829 --> 00:47:36,079
really makes it interesting so it's

1242
00:47:40,309 --> 00:47:37,839
almost like they're involved in this

1243
00:47:43,589 --> 00:47:40,319
really long chase with this thing

1244
00:47:45,270 --> 00:47:43,599
whatever it was i mean yeah

1245
00:47:47,190 --> 00:47:45,280
i mean they're saying as well they were

1246
00:47:49,030 --> 00:47:47,200
saying that you know at that time at

1247
00:47:51,829 --> 00:47:49,040
night in those aircraft your vision your

1248
00:47:53,829 --> 00:47:51,839
vision's limited to what 20 foot so your

1249
00:47:55,190 --> 00:47:53,839
bait you are basing

1250
00:47:56,710 --> 00:47:55,200
your

1251
00:47:58,470 --> 00:47:56,720
it's the radar it's the the

1252
00:47:59,829 --> 00:47:58,480
communications and things like that that

1253
00:48:01,990 --> 00:47:59,839
you're relying on

1254
00:48:04,549 --> 00:48:02,000
to navigate around and intercept it's

1255
00:48:06,549 --> 00:48:04,559
not visual unless there's a light which

1256
00:48:08,230 --> 00:48:06,559
you know some of them have said but

1257
00:48:10,710 --> 00:48:08,240
it must be

1258
00:48:11,910 --> 00:48:10,720
you know i'd be [\h__\h] myself it must

1259
00:48:13,750 --> 00:48:11,920
have been terrifying i think we were

1260
00:48:14,630 --> 00:48:13,760
putting a bit of bravado on there to be

1261
00:48:16,630 --> 00:48:14,640
honest

1262
00:48:18,230 --> 00:48:16,640
um and don't forget this is battle of

1263
00:48:19,990 --> 00:48:18,240
britain technology we're talking about

1264
00:48:22,549 --> 00:48:20,000
it's not much further advance than what

1265
00:48:25,190 --> 00:48:22,559
we were using during the 1940s this is

1266
00:48:27,349 --> 00:48:25,200
way before we add digital technology

1267
00:48:29,109 --> 00:48:27,359
which is what they use nowadays

1268
00:48:31,349 --> 00:48:29,119
and and the interesting thing about it

1269
00:48:33,589 --> 00:48:31,359
is the radars they were using then were

1270
00:48:36,549 --> 00:48:33,599
better for picking up ufos than what

1271
00:48:38,150 --> 00:48:36,559
we've got now because the the the radars

1272
00:48:41,270 --> 00:48:38,160
that they use for civil uh civil

1273
00:48:43,430 --> 00:48:41,280
aviation now they're computerized and i

1274
00:48:45,109 --> 00:48:43,440
mean i've been around manchester airport

1275
00:48:47,589 --> 00:48:45,119
i've been around some of the big airport

1276
00:48:49,670 --> 00:48:47,599
um terminals and actually had people

1277
00:48:51,670 --> 00:48:49,680
show me how to use the radar and i've

1278
00:48:53,349 --> 00:48:51,680
said to him do you ever see ufos and

1279
00:48:55,270 --> 00:48:53,359
they said well yeah we see odd things

1280
00:48:57,430 --> 00:48:55,280
all the time but all we do is we just

1281
00:48:59,270 --> 00:48:57,440
change the computer program so that

1282
00:49:01,030 --> 00:48:59,280
we get rid of them

1283
00:49:02,630 --> 00:49:01,040
it's like what

1284
00:49:04,950 --> 00:49:02,640
and it's it's like well we're not

1285
00:49:06,150 --> 00:49:04,960
interested in things that aren't

1286
00:49:07,910 --> 00:49:06,160
aircraft

1287
00:49:10,309 --> 00:49:07,920
you know so yeah there's birds there's

1288
00:49:12,470 --> 00:49:10,319
insects there's unusual meteorological

1289
00:49:13,990 --> 00:49:12,480
things but as long as they don't collide

1290
00:49:15,349 --> 00:49:14,000
with aircraft we don't want to see them

1291
00:49:16,390 --> 00:49:15,359
so we basically

1292
00:49:17,349 --> 00:49:16,400
we we

1293
00:49:19,990 --> 00:49:17,359
um

1294
00:49:22,630 --> 00:49:20,000
you know we we get the computers so it

1295
00:49:24,390 --> 00:49:22,640
it doesn't see them so unless something

1296
00:49:26,870 --> 00:49:24,400
is the size of an aircraft and it's

1297
00:49:29,670 --> 00:49:26,880
behaving like an aircraft it won't show

1298
00:49:31,829 --> 00:49:29,680
up on radar but that's why we get more

1299
00:49:33,670 --> 00:49:31,839
of these stories from the 1950s because

1300
00:49:35,190 --> 00:49:33,680
that was before they were computerized

1301
00:49:37,270 --> 00:49:35,200
so they were actually seeing things

1302
00:49:39,670 --> 00:49:37,280
which might have been ufos

1303
00:49:41,109 --> 00:49:39,680
and scrambling aircraft to look at them

1304
00:49:43,109 --> 00:49:41,119
and i think what really stood out for me

1305
00:49:45,270 --> 00:49:43,119
when going through everything you sent

1306
00:49:47,750 --> 00:49:45,280
me and reading about it was this big

1307
00:49:50,390 --> 00:49:47,760
ground control radar that we see behind

1308
00:49:52,230 --> 00:49:50,400
us right now but also those venom radar

1309
00:49:55,270 --> 00:49:52,240
sounded pretty good as well so if you've

1310
00:49:56,710 --> 00:49:55,280
got corroborating data coming from both

1311
00:50:01,030 --> 00:49:56,720
you know

1312
00:50:03,750 --> 00:50:01,040
they're both messing up or exactly so

1313
00:50:05,670 --> 00:50:03,760
here you've got at least five different

1314
00:50:07,589 --> 00:50:05,680
radars all seeing the same thing so

1315
00:50:09,990 --> 00:50:07,599
you've got the ground con the ground

1316
00:50:11,750 --> 00:50:10,000
controlled approach radar which is the

1317
00:50:13,510 --> 00:50:11,760
american one at lakenheath they were

1318
00:50:15,510 --> 00:50:13,520
seeing it from the ground all different

1319
00:50:17,109 --> 00:50:15,520
frequencies don't forget these radars

1320
00:50:19,750 --> 00:50:17,119
sure you've you've got the ground

1321
00:50:22,390 --> 00:50:19,760
control interception or gci radar which

1322
00:50:24,470 --> 00:50:22,400
is the type 80 or type 85

1323
00:50:26,630 --> 00:50:24,480
the one you can see behind you again a

1324
00:50:28,790 --> 00:50:26,640
different frequency seeing the same

1325
00:50:30,870 --> 00:50:28,800
thing on radar at the same time you then

1326
00:50:32,710 --> 00:50:30,880
send up the um the aircraft they've got

1327
00:50:35,109 --> 00:50:32,720
their airborne interception radar

1328
00:50:36,870 --> 00:50:35,119
operating on a different frequency if

1329
00:50:38,710 --> 00:50:36,880
you've got three radars seeing the same

1330
00:50:40,870 --> 00:50:38,720
thing at the same time there's something

1331
00:50:42,309 --> 00:50:40,880
there there's no doubt about it and

1332
00:50:44,470 --> 00:50:42,319
you've got i think freddie mentioned

1333
00:50:46,790 --> 00:50:44,480
there's the hype finder radar which is a

1334
00:50:48,710 --> 00:50:46,800
separate radar because he said at the

1335
00:50:50,390 --> 00:50:48,720
end it just zoomed off on the hype

1336
00:50:52,549 --> 00:50:50,400
finder yeah and they could incredible

1337
00:50:54,470 --> 00:50:52,559
speed get any readings from it yeah

1338
00:50:56,309 --> 00:50:54,480
that's incredible

1339
00:50:58,630 --> 00:50:56,319
this was going on for hours it started

1340
00:51:00,790 --> 00:50:58,640
at so about half past nine

1341
00:51:02,309 --> 00:51:00,800
and it they didn't fade from the radar

1342
00:51:04,390 --> 00:51:02,319
screens until half past three in the

1343
00:51:06,710 --> 00:51:04,400
morning so there were ways after a wave

1344
00:51:08,470 --> 00:51:06,720
of aircraft going up i mean they sent

1345
00:51:10,150 --> 00:51:08,480
some american aircraft up as well some

1346
00:51:11,750 --> 00:51:10,160
t33s

1347
00:51:13,670 --> 00:51:11,760
i managed to track the pilot down from

1348
00:51:14,950 --> 00:51:13,680
one of those and he remembered it as

1349
00:51:15,990 --> 00:51:14,960
well

1350
00:51:17,270 --> 00:51:16,000
wow

1351
00:51:19,030 --> 00:51:17,280
i think one thing that stood out for me

1352
00:51:21,510 --> 00:51:19,040
was when this the radars were tracking

1353
00:51:23,589 --> 00:51:21,520
them coming in you know 30 miles 20

1354
00:51:25,589 --> 00:51:23,599
miles 10 miles and you know they're

1355
00:51:27,349 --> 00:51:25,599
getting the speed of this thing so two

1356
00:51:29,910 --> 00:51:27,359
three four thousand

1357
00:51:32,069 --> 00:51:29,920
miles an hour in 1956 of course they're

1358
00:51:33,829 --> 00:51:32,079
going to be

1359
00:51:35,510 --> 00:51:33,839
very confused and

1360
00:51:37,510 --> 00:51:35,520
the tensions are going to rise you know

1361
00:51:38,470 --> 00:51:37,520
at that point within the cold war it's

1362
00:51:40,390 --> 00:51:38,480
going to be

1363
00:51:43,030 --> 00:51:40,400
what the hell's going on so all these

1364
00:51:46,309 --> 00:51:43,040
things adding up is just a

1365
00:51:49,270 --> 00:51:46,319
fascinating fascinating ufo case so it's

1366
00:51:51,589 --> 00:51:49,280
just such a shame that it didn't manage

1367
00:51:53,030 --> 00:51:51,599
to make it into the media like some of

1368
00:51:55,589 --> 00:51:53,040
the other stories you know like the top

1369
00:51:57,270 --> 00:51:55,599
cliff one from 1952 and some of the

1370
00:52:00,230 --> 00:51:57,280
others from that period because like

1371
00:52:01,910 --> 00:52:00,240
people spoke out and spoke to the media

1372
00:52:03,270 --> 00:52:01,920
um and then there were questions in

1373
00:52:04,470 --> 00:52:03,280
parliament

1374
00:52:06,470 --> 00:52:04,480
it basically

1375
00:52:08,470 --> 00:52:06,480
created a bit of controversy and so some

1376
00:52:09,829 --> 00:52:08,480
of the papers survived whereas with this

1377
00:52:11,430 --> 00:52:09,839
one because they were able to keep it

1378
00:52:12,950 --> 00:52:11,440
secret for so long

1379
00:52:15,349 --> 00:52:12,960
they've managed to

1380
00:52:17,670 --> 00:52:15,359
hide whatever there was about it and

1381
00:52:20,150 --> 00:52:17,680
destroy it effectively

1382
00:52:22,069 --> 00:52:20,160
why i don't know well yeah i was going

1383
00:52:23,670 --> 00:52:22,079
to say here's you know we know that the

1384
00:52:25,829 --> 00:52:23,680
mod

1385
00:52:27,589 --> 00:52:25,839
a sly and they have been many times in

1386
00:52:30,790 --> 00:52:27,599
the past do you think it was a simple

1387
00:52:32,390 --> 00:52:30,800
case if they just destroyed them for

1388
00:52:34,309 --> 00:52:32,400
purposes of hiding the case and a

1389
00:52:37,190 --> 00:52:34,319
cover-up or do you think they said they

1390
00:52:38,790 --> 00:52:37,200
destroyed them and kept some somewhere i

1391
00:52:40,630 --> 00:52:38,800
mean this is obviously pure speculation

1392
00:52:42,150 --> 00:52:40,640
on your heart but if anybody knows the

1393
00:52:43,829 --> 00:52:42,160
way the mod and the archives and

1394
00:52:46,230 --> 00:52:43,839
everything work is you

1395
00:52:48,470 --> 00:52:46,240
i think they've got a big secret i think

1396
00:52:50,230 --> 00:52:48,480
they kept them for a while because i

1397
00:52:51,270 --> 00:52:50,240
think they weren't able to explain it

1398
00:52:52,790 --> 00:52:51,280
but i think what you've got to

1399
00:52:54,390 --> 00:52:52,800
understand here is there's a massive

1400
00:52:57,430 --> 00:52:54,400
turnover of staff

1401
00:53:00,230 --> 00:52:57,440
at the mod and you get people who are

1402
00:53:02,150 --> 00:53:00,240
sympathetic towards this subject like

1403
00:53:03,829 --> 00:53:02,160
the unique popes of the world

1404
00:53:06,710 --> 00:53:03,839
and you get people who are just utter

1405
00:53:09,589 --> 00:53:06,720
skeptics and um i think what happened

1406
00:53:12,150 --> 00:53:09,599
was and i suspect sometime in the 1970s

1407
00:53:13,910 --> 00:53:12,160
maybe or even as late as the 1980s

1408
00:53:15,910 --> 00:53:13,920
someone came across all this stuff and

1409
00:53:17,109 --> 00:53:15,920
just said why are we keeping this

1410
00:53:18,870 --> 00:53:17,119
and just

1411
00:53:20,950 --> 00:53:18,880
all they've got to do is just say i

1412
00:53:22,309 --> 00:53:20,960
think this is nonsense and it happened

1413
00:53:25,589 --> 00:53:22,319
so long ago

1414
00:53:27,109 --> 00:53:25,599
uh we don't need to worry about it so

1415
00:53:28,870 --> 00:53:27,119
signed all they need to do is sign a bit

1416
00:53:30,470 --> 00:53:28,880
of paper destruction certificate and it

1417
00:53:33,910 --> 00:53:30,480
goes in the incinerator and i think

1418
00:53:36,150 --> 00:53:33,920
that's what's happened unfortunately

1419
00:53:38,230 --> 00:53:36,160
that's crazy uh let's get to some

1420
00:53:40,390 --> 00:53:38,240
questions and and and statements uh

1421
00:53:42,630 --> 00:53:40,400
we'll start with this one here condine

1422
00:53:43,430 --> 00:53:42,640
suggests an interest a question mark

1423
00:53:45,829 --> 00:53:43,440
well

1424
00:53:47,829 --> 00:53:45,839
for me personally condyne

1425
00:53:49,430 --> 00:53:47,839
you know he mentioned a lot of cases

1426
00:53:52,150 --> 00:53:49,440
that weren't explained but it certainly

1427
00:53:53,109 --> 00:53:52,160
didn't take it any further

1428
00:53:55,990 --> 00:53:53,119
no

1429
00:53:57,910 --> 00:53:56,000
i mean that um haddo ron haddo wrote the

1430
00:53:59,270 --> 00:53:57,920
condone report he must know something

1431
00:54:01,589 --> 00:53:59,280
about this case

1432
00:54:05,030 --> 00:54:01,599
uh because he was based in that area he

1433
00:54:07,430 --> 00:54:05,040
sort of trained in east anglia on radar

1434
00:54:10,230 --> 00:54:07,440
um i'm sure he would know about it and

1435
00:54:12,790 --> 00:54:10,240
he mentions another incident in 1996

1436
00:54:14,790 --> 00:54:12,800
when something was seen r r e f

1437
00:54:16,309 --> 00:54:14,800
neatly said radar again

1438
00:54:17,190 --> 00:54:16,319
in the condone report it's one of the

1439
00:54:19,750 --> 00:54:17,200
few

1440
00:54:20,950 --> 00:54:19,760
specific incidents that he that he

1441
00:54:23,829 --> 00:54:20,960
refers to

1442
00:54:26,870 --> 00:54:23,839
um so there's obviously something about

1443
00:54:28,630 --> 00:54:26,880
east anglia that attracts these things

1444
00:54:30,150 --> 00:54:28,640
this is whatever they are

1445
00:54:32,069 --> 00:54:30,160
i'm gonna i'm gonna bring up someone we

1446
00:54:34,069 --> 00:54:32,079
talked about before we came on live

1447
00:54:36,789 --> 00:54:34,079
which was the

1448
00:54:37,910 --> 00:54:36,799
the beach the lighthouse beach near

1449
00:54:40,549 --> 00:54:37,920
orford

1450
00:54:42,630 --> 00:54:40,559
yeah and we always hear about nuclear

1451
00:54:43,990 --> 00:54:42,640
things attracting uap and

1452
00:54:45,510 --> 00:54:44,000
if if you could just tell us a bit about

1453
00:54:47,349 --> 00:54:45,520
that again because that

1454
00:54:49,990 --> 00:54:47,359
all sorts going on there from the early

1455
00:54:52,710 --> 00:54:50,000
1900s yeah alfred ness is like a big

1456
00:54:56,470 --> 00:54:52,720
long strip of shingle beach and it's

1457
00:54:59,430 --> 00:54:56,480
just off the coast not far from um

1458
00:55:01,430 --> 00:54:59,440
bentwaters and raf woodbridge and right

1459
00:55:03,990 --> 00:55:01,440
from the first world war they used it to

1460
00:55:05,910 --> 00:55:04,000
to test all kinds of nasty stuff

1461
00:55:08,710 --> 00:55:05,920
mustard gas i believe in the first world

1462
00:55:10,549 --> 00:55:08,720
war and then in the cold war um they

1463
00:55:12,710 --> 00:55:10,559
were using well before before the second

1464
00:55:14,950 --> 00:55:12,720
world war before we had radar they were

1465
00:55:15,829 --> 00:55:14,960
using the making the first radar tests

1466
00:55:17,910 --> 00:55:15,839
there

1467
00:55:19,510 --> 00:55:17,920
and before we discovered radar they were

1468
00:55:22,309 --> 00:55:19,520
looking for a death ray something that

1469
00:55:24,069 --> 00:55:22,319
they could use to actually you know burn

1470
00:55:26,470 --> 00:55:24,079
enemy pilots out of the sky you know

1471
00:55:27,990 --> 00:55:26,480
like something from h.g wells

1472
00:55:29,829 --> 00:55:28,000
whilst they were mucking about with that

1473
00:55:31,670 --> 00:55:29,839
that they realized that if you send

1474
00:55:33,990 --> 00:55:31,680
pulses of energy out

1475
00:55:35,750 --> 00:55:34,000
and it hits things and bounces back you

1476
00:55:37,829 --> 00:55:35,760
can actually see things before they

1477
00:55:39,750 --> 00:55:37,839
reach the shore so that's how they

1478
00:55:42,069 --> 00:55:39,760
discovered radar effectively when they

1479
00:55:44,950 --> 00:55:42,079
were looking for a death ray

1480
00:55:47,430 --> 00:55:44,960
um um and then the they they built these

1481
00:55:49,030 --> 00:55:47,440
huge concrete pagodas where whether you

1482
00:55:51,190 --> 00:55:49,040
whether we're testing nuclear bombs

1483
00:55:53,190 --> 00:55:51,200
basically underground all of this going

1484
00:55:55,910 --> 00:55:53,200
on on offeredness and then the last

1485
00:55:58,630 --> 00:55:55,920
thing there in the 1960s or 70s the

1486
00:56:02,390 --> 00:55:58,640
americans spent billions on this on this

1487
00:56:04,870 --> 00:56:02,400
top secret base called cobra mist

1488
00:56:06,870 --> 00:56:04,880
which has got a very evocative name and

1489
00:56:09,430 --> 00:56:06,880
effectively it was a top secret over the

1490
00:56:12,150 --> 00:56:09,440
horizon radar station

1491
00:56:14,950 --> 00:56:12,160
that was built to detect um soviet um

1492
00:56:16,870 --> 00:56:14,960
into intercontinental ballistic missiles

1493
00:56:19,109 --> 00:56:16,880
a great distance almost like you know to

1494
00:56:21,510 --> 00:56:19,119
take over from filing deals yeah and

1495
00:56:23,510 --> 00:56:21,520
they spent billions on it and it was the

1496
00:56:26,150 --> 00:56:23,520
whole island was sort of off limits no

1497
00:56:27,990 --> 00:56:26,160
one could go there but but the thing is

1498
00:56:30,630 --> 00:56:28,000
it never worked because there was some

1499
00:56:32,309 --> 00:56:30,640
kind of weird sort of noise that they

1500
00:56:34,710 --> 00:56:32,319
couldn't get rid of that was sort of

1501
00:56:36,069 --> 00:56:34,720
interfering with the radar and they

1502
00:56:38,470 --> 00:56:36,079
didn't know whether it was the russians

1503
00:56:40,950 --> 00:56:38,480
jamming it or what um so they shut this

1504
00:56:42,789 --> 00:56:40,960
whole thing down about 1972

1505
00:56:44,710 --> 00:56:42,799
and it never it never went into

1506
00:56:47,270 --> 00:56:44,720
operation but that whole area and its

1507
00:56:49,270 --> 00:56:47,280
proximity to rentals from forest has led

1508
00:56:50,789 --> 00:56:49,280
people like john burroughs the the one

1509
00:56:52,150 --> 00:56:50,799
of the key witnesses

1510
00:56:54,309 --> 00:56:52,160
from the rendelsham incident he's

1511
00:56:55,510 --> 00:56:54,319
absolutely convinced that he's that what

1512
00:56:58,230 --> 00:56:55,520
he saw

1513
00:57:00,950 --> 00:56:58,240
um at raf woodbridge um on that famous

1514
00:57:01,750 --> 00:57:00,960
night was some kind of experiment this

1515
00:57:03,589 --> 00:57:01,760
this

1516
00:57:05,670 --> 00:57:03,599
some kind of experiment involving the

1517
00:57:07,349 --> 00:57:05,680
british and the americans and some kind

1518
00:57:09,510 --> 00:57:07,359
of death ray that was being tested that

1519
00:57:12,150 --> 00:57:09,520
he was exposed to which is why

1520
00:57:14,630 --> 00:57:12,160
um you know he's had all this ill health

1521
00:57:16,630 --> 00:57:14,640
and he blames it on on that not on not

1522
00:57:18,470 --> 00:57:16,640
on sort of aliens or extraterrestrials

1523
00:57:19,510 --> 00:57:18,480
but on some kind of experiment that went

1524
00:57:21,430 --> 00:57:19,520
wrong

1525
00:57:22,309 --> 00:57:21,440
maybe he's onto something there i don't

1526
00:57:31,190 --> 00:57:22,319
know

1527
00:57:33,990 --> 00:57:31,200
1980 was related to us nukes being held

1528
00:57:36,150 --> 00:57:34,000
at ben waters were there us nukes there

1529
00:57:37,910 --> 00:57:36,160
as far back as 56

1530
00:57:40,150 --> 00:57:37,920
the answer is yes well they certainly

1531
00:57:42,390 --> 00:57:40,160
would look at lakenheath i mean

1532
00:57:45,589 --> 00:57:42,400
lakenheath is some distance from

1533
00:57:48,230 --> 00:57:45,599
bentwaters but they had um some serious

1534
00:57:50,630 --> 00:57:48,240
um nuclear ordnance in fact on a level

1535
00:57:52,630 --> 00:57:50,640
of like what they'd used at nagasaki

1536
00:57:54,549 --> 00:57:52,640
uh in the second world war stored at

1537
00:57:57,589 --> 00:57:54,559
lakenheath and this is why when this

1538
00:58:00,549 --> 00:57:57,599
b-52 crashed there and just before the

1539
00:58:02,549 --> 00:58:00,559
ufo incident you know it it didn't come

1540
00:58:04,950 --> 00:58:02,559
out until the 1980s thank god but you

1541
00:58:07,270 --> 00:58:04,960
know we were very close to um having

1542
00:58:10,870 --> 00:58:07,280
most of the east of england leveled

1543
00:58:12,150 --> 00:58:10,880
that that night in july 1956.

1544
00:58:15,030 --> 00:58:12,160
there we go

1545
00:58:16,950 --> 00:58:15,040
uh andre asks if this is 1956 some of

1546
00:58:18,150 --> 00:58:16,960
these are going back earlier on when i

1547
00:58:20,069 --> 00:58:18,160
saved them

1548
00:58:22,630 --> 00:58:20,079
why is the uk still silent on this

1549
00:58:24,069 --> 00:58:22,640
subject

1550
00:58:26,230 --> 00:58:24,079
well i think the answer to that is

1551
00:58:28,069 --> 00:58:26,240
simply they're embarrassed by it and i

1552
00:58:29,829 --> 00:58:28,079
think it sort of contradicts their

1553
00:58:31,910 --> 00:58:29,839
standard line that these things don't

1554
00:58:33,270 --> 00:58:31,920
exist that they're not interested in

1555
00:58:35,190 --> 00:58:33,280
them and they've never studied them

1556
00:58:36,710 --> 00:58:35,200
which is clearly a lie

1557
00:58:38,470 --> 00:58:36,720
yeah and they don't pose any kind of

1558
00:58:39,750 --> 00:58:38,480
threat to national security the same as

1559
00:58:41,349 --> 00:58:39,760
what we hear

1560
00:58:43,190 --> 00:58:41,359
yeah although

1561
00:58:45,589 --> 00:58:43,200
like i said i've had to reluctantly sort

1562
00:58:48,150 --> 00:58:45,599
of accept that i don't actually think

1563
00:58:50,230 --> 00:58:48,160
they deliberately

1564
00:58:52,150 --> 00:58:50,240
had a policy to destroy this stuff i

1565
00:58:53,910 --> 00:58:52,160
just think if you if you work in the

1566
00:58:56,789 --> 00:58:53,920
civil service particularly the mod

1567
00:58:58,950 --> 00:58:56,799
there's such a huge turnover of people

1568
00:59:01,910 --> 00:58:58,960
and there's different policies coming in

1569
00:59:02,870 --> 00:59:01,920
and different sort of regimes

1570
00:59:07,430 --> 00:59:02,880
and

1571
00:59:09,349 --> 00:59:07,440
things were stored on paper in filing

1572
00:59:10,390 --> 00:59:09,359
cabinets remember that

1573
00:59:12,630 --> 00:59:10,400
oh yeah

1574
00:59:13,910 --> 00:59:12,640
and

1575
00:59:15,829 --> 00:59:13,920
people don't

1576
00:59:17,990 --> 00:59:15,839
store things in filing cabinets anymore

1577
00:59:20,150 --> 00:59:18,000
so so effectively during the 1980s and

1578
00:59:21,829 --> 00:59:20,160
1990s they literally went through all

1579
00:59:24,069 --> 00:59:21,839
the past records of the ministry of

1580
00:59:25,510 --> 00:59:24,079
defense when they were moving offices

1581
00:59:27,990 --> 00:59:25,520
and things and they basically must have

1582
00:59:30,150 --> 00:59:28,000
come across mountains of stuff on these

1583
00:59:32,390 --> 00:59:30,160
ufo incidents and just said

1584
00:59:33,670 --> 00:59:32,400
this happened 30 years ago what do we

1585
00:59:36,630 --> 00:59:33,680
need to keep it

1586
00:59:38,150 --> 00:59:36,640
if we do keep it then people like us in

1587
00:59:39,750 --> 00:59:38,160
the future might start asking awkward

1588
00:59:41,270 --> 00:59:39,760
questions and asking to see what you've

1589
00:59:43,349 --> 00:59:41,280
got on fire

1590
00:59:45,349 --> 00:59:43,359
what what have we got to lose by just

1591
00:59:47,190 --> 00:59:45,359
destroying the law and then we can say

1592
00:59:49,030 --> 00:59:47,200
oh well sorry we don't keep records

1593
00:59:51,190 --> 00:59:49,040
after such and such a day

1594
00:59:54,069 --> 00:59:51,200
and that's the policy they've adopted

1595
00:59:56,309 --> 00:59:54,079
yeah it is true yeah absolutely

1596
00:59:57,990 --> 00:59:56,319
um but that kind of leads me into a

1597
00:59:59,670 --> 00:59:58,000
question is something we spoke about

1598
01:00:01,589 --> 00:59:59,680
very briefly i think one of the last

1599
01:00:03,750 --> 01:00:01,599
times you joined me is i think i asked

1600
01:00:04,549 --> 01:00:03,760
you the question is

1601
01:00:06,470 --> 01:00:04,559
if

1602
01:00:09,670 --> 01:00:06,480
you believe they may still will have a

1603
01:00:11,910 --> 01:00:09,680
kind of secret di-55 equivalent office

1604
01:00:13,589 --> 01:00:11,920
happening now

1605
01:00:16,309 --> 01:00:13,599
and yeah i think you said you kind of

1606
01:00:18,069 --> 01:00:16,319
think they might do can you expand on do

1607
01:00:18,870 --> 01:00:18,079
you think you know where that might sit

1608
01:00:20,390 --> 01:00:18,880
or

1609
01:00:23,990 --> 01:00:20,400
anything like that

1610
01:00:26,390 --> 01:00:24,000
yes well the i-55 who were basically the

1611
01:00:29,109 --> 01:00:26,400
intelligence branch who investigated

1612
01:00:32,150 --> 01:00:29,119
ufos from about 1960s because when the

1613
01:00:33,990 --> 01:00:32,160
air ministry became part of the mod

1614
01:00:35,510 --> 01:00:34,000
um the old sort of structure that

1615
01:00:37,670 --> 01:00:35,520
existed at the time of the lake in the

1616
01:00:41,030 --> 01:00:37,680
heath sighting which was basically the

1617
01:00:43,030 --> 01:00:41,040
old raf stroke air ministry intelligence

1618
01:00:45,270 --> 01:00:43,040
who looked into these things

1619
01:00:48,549 --> 01:00:45,280
they passed their responsibility on to

1620
01:00:50,950 --> 01:00:48,559
di55 i think about 1967

1621
01:00:53,829 --> 01:00:50,960
and di55 um

1622
01:00:56,230 --> 01:00:53,839
retained that interest and they retained

1623
01:00:57,910 --> 01:00:56,240
access to the files up to about 2000

1624
01:00:58,710 --> 01:00:57,920
which was when ron had her completed

1625
01:01:04,309 --> 01:00:58,720
that

1626
01:01:07,109 --> 01:01:04,319
drew a line under their

1627
01:01:09,109 --> 01:01:07,119
supposed interest in the subject now

1628
01:01:10,549 --> 01:01:09,119
it's a bit like um

1629
01:01:12,710 --> 01:01:10,559
you know that there was that fine source

1630
01:01:14,069 --> 01:01:12,720
of working party study in 1950 that

1631
01:01:17,030 --> 01:01:14,079
basically said we don't need to worry

1632
01:01:19,829 --> 01:01:17,040
about this forget about it yeah um and

1633
01:01:22,150 --> 01:01:19,839
then winston churchill in 1952 after the

1634
01:01:24,390 --> 01:01:22,160
top cliff sighting said you know what's

1635
01:01:27,190 --> 01:01:24,400
going on and they had to then reinstate

1636
01:01:29,589 --> 01:01:27,200
the the ufo desk and i think

1637
01:01:31,510 --> 01:01:29,599
something like that will be

1638
01:01:33,430 --> 01:01:31,520
in existence it just they won't use the

1639
01:01:36,309 --> 01:01:33,440
word ufo they might not even use the

1640
01:01:39,109 --> 01:01:36,319
word uap sorry

1641
01:01:40,789 --> 01:01:39,119
yeah i bet they don't i think

1642
01:01:43,030 --> 01:01:40,799
they'll have invented something else to

1643
01:01:45,750 --> 01:01:43,040
describe it as and they'll probably

1644
01:01:48,230 --> 01:01:45,760
because ron hadou was a contractor he

1645
01:01:50,549 --> 01:01:48,240
was he was effectively a private defense

1646
01:01:52,390 --> 01:01:50,559
contractor who they brought in

1647
01:01:53,750 --> 01:01:52,400
paid him to do the study so that they

1648
01:01:55,190 --> 01:01:53,760
could then say

1649
01:01:57,029 --> 01:01:55,200
when they were asking parliament we're

1650
01:01:58,470 --> 01:01:57,039
not actually doing it ourselves which is

1651
01:02:01,190 --> 01:01:58,480
not a lie because they were paying a

1652
01:02:02,789 --> 01:02:01,200
private contractor to do it and that

1653
01:02:04,549 --> 01:02:02,799
means that if some if you ask for

1654
01:02:05,990 --> 01:02:04,559
information the freedom of information

1655
01:02:08,230 --> 01:02:06,000
they can say no we haven't got any

1656
01:02:10,870 --> 01:02:08,240
information which is true because it's

1657
01:02:12,789 --> 01:02:10,880
public information that's subject to

1658
01:02:14,549 --> 01:02:12,799
freedom of information so if if you

1659
01:02:17,029 --> 01:02:14,559
employ a private contractor it's a bit

1660
01:02:18,630 --> 01:02:17,039
like what happens with the nhs

1661
01:02:21,430 --> 01:02:18,640
um you can ask for information from the

1662
01:02:23,349 --> 01:02:21,440
nhs but anybody that the nhs employees

1663
01:02:27,349 --> 01:02:23,359
privately is outside freedom of

1664
01:02:29,510 --> 01:02:27,359
information so i my i suspect whoever's

1665
01:02:31,270 --> 01:02:29,520
taken over from di55 will be private

1666
01:02:33,190 --> 01:02:31,280
defense contractors they'll be based

1667
01:02:34,789 --> 01:02:33,200
somewhere like farnborough

1668
01:02:36,870 --> 01:02:34,799
there's a base in bristol where i

1669
01:02:40,390 --> 01:02:36,880
suspect this is going on

1670
01:02:41,910 --> 01:02:40,400
um or near bristol and i think that they

1671
01:02:44,150 --> 01:02:41,920
will be um

1672
01:02:46,829 --> 01:02:44,160
keeping a very low profile they'll be

1673
01:02:50,150 --> 01:02:46,839
just interviewing um people such as

1674
01:02:52,150 --> 01:02:50,160
pilots radar personnel people who've

1675
01:02:53,510 --> 01:02:52,160
seen things who are military basically

1676
01:02:55,430 --> 01:02:53,520
they're not interested in civilian

1677
01:02:57,190 --> 01:02:55,440
sightings anymore

1678
01:03:00,549 --> 01:02:57,200
and that does kind of fit in with what's

1679
01:03:01,750 --> 01:03:00,559
happening in the u.s a lot as well

1680
01:03:04,230 --> 01:03:01,760
here we go

1681
01:03:06,390 --> 01:03:04,240
how relevant if any do you see the 1956

1682
01:03:08,069 --> 01:03:06,400
incident with the 1980s or in the

1683
01:03:09,190 --> 01:03:08,079
comparison of like how did you weigh

1684
01:03:11,990 --> 01:03:09,200
them up

1685
01:03:14,309 --> 01:03:12,000
um well i think if we have actually had

1686
01:03:16,309 --> 01:03:14,319
some of the some of the materials

1687
01:03:18,230 --> 01:03:16,319
um because back then when they did the

1688
01:03:20,789 --> 01:03:18,240
radar trackings they actually had like

1689
01:03:22,549 --> 01:03:20,799
tracing paper on the radar screens and

1690
01:03:24,309 --> 01:03:22,559
they used to mark it with pencils so you

1691
01:03:25,270 --> 01:03:24,319
could actually see where the object

1692
01:03:27,670 --> 01:03:25,280
moved

1693
01:03:29,670 --> 01:03:27,680
and i know that freddy kept a really

1694
01:03:32,230 --> 01:03:29,680
detailed record he had like a big thick

1695
01:03:33,750 --> 01:03:32,240
log book where he he would have entered

1696
01:03:35,589 --> 01:03:33,760
every single thing that happened during

1697
01:03:38,230 --> 01:03:35,599
the night what time he scrambled what

1698
01:03:39,670 --> 01:03:38,240
altitude the aircraft was and he had all

1699
01:03:41,270 --> 01:03:39,680
that and he said that when this group

1700
01:03:44,230 --> 01:03:41,280
capped him from fight to command came

1701
01:03:45,029 --> 01:03:44,240
they took it they removed the book

1702
01:03:48,789 --> 01:03:45,039
so

1703
01:03:51,190 --> 01:03:48,799
if we had access to it

1704
01:03:52,710 --> 01:03:51,200
it would be far more evidential than the

1705
01:03:54,390 --> 01:03:52,720
rendel shrimp incident because you could

1706
01:03:56,630 --> 01:03:54,400
add it all together you could give it um

1707
01:03:58,309 --> 01:03:56,640
somebody with you know who could put it

1708
01:04:00,390 --> 01:03:58,319
all together with what the pilot said

1709
01:04:02,390 --> 01:04:00,400
and it would be highly evidential and

1710
01:04:04,710 --> 01:04:02,400
obviously someone did that

1711
01:04:06,390 --> 01:04:04,720
um at the air ministry at the time

1712
01:04:09,349 --> 01:04:06,400
and reach whatever conclusions they

1713
01:04:10,789 --> 01:04:09,359
reached so i i i've always thought it's

1714
01:04:12,950 --> 01:04:10,799
far more

1715
01:04:15,829 --> 01:04:12,960
important and evidential than rendering

1716
01:04:17,829 --> 01:04:15,839
because the radar aspect of it is it's

1717
01:04:20,069 --> 01:04:17,839
got the primacy whereas

1718
01:04:22,150 --> 01:04:20,079
the radar aspect for rendelsham i always

1719
01:04:26,549 --> 01:04:22,160
thought was pretty weak actually

1720
01:04:28,390 --> 01:04:26,559
right no fair enough um

1721
01:04:30,470 --> 01:04:28,400
uh graham asks what's the likelihood of

1722
01:04:32,230 --> 01:04:30,480
secret files from the 50s and 60s

1723
01:04:34,309 --> 01:04:32,240
actually surviving somewhere would

1724
01:04:36,870 --> 01:04:34,319
duplicates be kept by other agencies

1725
01:04:39,910 --> 01:04:36,880
such as di55 i guess you kind of covered

1726
01:04:41,990 --> 01:04:39,920
this but anything to add well the some

1727
01:04:43,990 --> 01:04:42,000
of the files from the 1950s have

1728
01:04:46,230 --> 01:04:44,000
survived i've got copied copies of them

1729
01:04:47,910 --> 01:04:46,240
there are some quite interesting ones

1730
01:04:49,589 --> 01:04:47,920
um there was some um there was some

1731
01:04:52,390 --> 01:04:49,599
parliamentary questions that were asked

1732
01:04:55,190 --> 01:04:52,400
i think about 1957 about a similar

1733
01:04:57,029 --> 01:04:55,200
incident where javelins were scrambled

1734
01:04:59,670 --> 01:04:57,039
and this did get into the news and there

1735
01:05:01,510 --> 01:04:59,680
was another sighting at west frau raf

1736
01:05:04,870 --> 01:05:01,520
west florida in scotland

1737
01:05:05,990 --> 01:05:04,880
in april 1957 where three different

1738
01:05:09,430 --> 01:05:06,000
radar

1739
01:05:11,990 --> 01:05:09,440
set um stations on a an raf bombing

1740
01:05:13,510 --> 01:05:12,000
range switched on at a certain time on a

1741
01:05:15,750 --> 01:05:13,520
morning i think it was early in the

1742
01:05:17,990 --> 01:05:15,760
spring morning and all of them at the

1743
01:05:20,710 --> 01:05:18,000
same time saw this enormous object over

1744
01:05:22,470 --> 01:05:20,720
the over the irish sea like a huge

1745
01:05:24,870 --> 01:05:22,480
object as big as a battleship with lots

1746
01:05:28,309 --> 01:05:24,880
of other objects circling around it

1747
01:05:32,069 --> 01:05:28,319
and um the di55 report well sorry not

1748
01:05:34,230 --> 01:05:32,079
the i-55 it's their predecessors dis

1749
01:05:35,829 --> 01:05:34,240
yeah it was air intelligence i think

1750
01:05:39,029 --> 01:05:35,839
they were called

1751
01:05:41,430 --> 01:05:39,039
tech their report on that west florida

1752
01:05:43,670 --> 01:05:41,440
has survived it's in it did survive at

1753
01:05:45,910 --> 01:05:43,680
the national archives i can send you

1754
01:05:47,829 --> 01:05:45,920
copies of that and it's interesting

1755
01:05:50,069 --> 01:05:47,839
because it does actually say we can't

1756
01:05:52,789 --> 01:05:50,079
explain it and there was obviously some

1757
01:05:55,750 --> 01:05:52,799
object in the sky that was

1758
01:05:56,549 --> 01:05:55,760
seen on radar uh it wasn't seen visually

1759
01:05:58,309 --> 01:05:56,559
but

1760
01:06:00,470 --> 01:05:58,319
i think the phrase they use is you know

1761
01:06:02,470 --> 01:06:00,480
there were four very large reflecting

1762
01:06:05,190 --> 01:06:02,480
objects that weren't charged clouds and

1763
01:06:07,750 --> 01:06:05,200
weren't sort of meteorological phenomena

1764
01:06:10,230 --> 01:06:07,760
and the reason that that file wasn't

1765
01:06:12,549 --> 01:06:10,240
destroyed and it survived was because

1766
01:06:14,630 --> 01:06:12,559
the one of the radar operators talked to

1767
01:06:16,950 --> 01:06:14,640
one of the sunday tabloids

1768
01:06:18,390 --> 01:06:16,960
about the story so it was front page

1769
01:06:20,390 --> 01:06:18,400
headlines and then there were questions

1770
01:06:23,190 --> 01:06:20,400
asked in parliament and

1771
01:06:24,549 --> 01:06:23,200
amazingly at the jic

1772
01:06:26,870 --> 01:06:24,559
which is the joint intelligence

1773
01:06:29,750 --> 01:06:26,880
committee in london which is like the

1774
01:06:32,950 --> 01:06:29,760
absolute top intelligence um

1775
01:06:34,230 --> 01:06:32,960
where you've got mi5 mi6 gchq

1776
01:06:36,069 --> 01:06:34,240
it's there in the minute so they

1777
01:06:38,549 --> 01:06:36,079
couldn't destroy the evidence for that

1778
01:06:41,029 --> 01:06:38,559
one and it's actually in the files it's

1779
01:06:43,270 --> 01:06:41,039
just such a pity that no one

1780
01:06:44,950 --> 01:06:43,280
involved in lakenheath spoke to the

1781
01:06:46,630 --> 01:06:44,960
media at the time because if they had

1782
01:06:49,589 --> 01:06:46,640
have done they wouldn't have been able

1783
01:06:50,870 --> 01:06:49,599
to destroy the material that they have

1784
01:06:52,470 --> 01:06:50,880
destroyed

1785
01:06:55,029 --> 01:06:52,480
yeah absolutely

1786
01:06:57,589 --> 01:06:55,039
uh oh mr strafe wilson good to see you

1787
01:07:00,150 --> 01:06:57,599
strafe does dave have any comments on

1788
01:07:02,789 --> 01:07:00,160
the current state of the ufo uap topic

1789
01:07:03,589 --> 01:07:02,799
are we gaining ground

1790
01:07:07,270 --> 01:07:03,599
oh

1791
01:07:11,190 --> 01:07:08,870
i don't know are we we seem to be

1792
01:07:13,349 --> 01:07:11,200
getting somewhere when the pentagon

1793
01:07:14,789 --> 01:07:13,359
published their report and although

1794
01:07:17,430 --> 01:07:14,799
people thought it was a bit of a damp

1795
01:07:19,109 --> 01:07:17,440
squib i thought there were some um quite

1796
01:07:21,270 --> 01:07:19,119
interesting things in it i think the

1797
01:07:23,190 --> 01:07:21,280
idea that they had for doing like a

1798
01:07:25,829 --> 01:07:23,200
real-time radar

1799
01:07:27,349 --> 01:07:25,839
study of some of the areas where these

1800
01:07:29,430 --> 01:07:27,359
things have been seen for example in the

1801
01:07:30,710 --> 01:07:29,440
southern pacific ocean around the coast

1802
01:07:32,789 --> 01:07:30,720
of california

1803
01:07:34,150 --> 01:07:32,799
rather than they were basically saying

1804
01:07:36,870 --> 01:07:34,160
we're not going to get anywhere looking

1805
01:07:38,630 --> 01:07:36,880
at historical cases sadly

1806
01:07:40,950 --> 01:07:38,640
like lake and heath

1807
01:07:43,029 --> 01:07:40,960
because they happened so long ago

1808
01:07:45,670 --> 01:07:43,039
however evidential we might think they

1809
01:07:46,630 --> 01:07:45,680
are as ufologists from a military point

1810
01:07:48,870 --> 01:07:46,640
of view

1811
01:07:50,789 --> 01:07:48,880
people's stories without

1812
01:07:52,309 --> 01:07:50,799
hard evidence like radar tapes and

1813
01:07:54,390 --> 01:07:52,319
photographs and all the rest of it don't

1814
01:07:56,710 --> 01:07:54,400
really amount to much so what they seem

1815
01:07:59,029 --> 01:07:56,720
to be suggesting and they may well be

1816
01:08:00,789 --> 01:07:59,039
doing this now because they've asked for

1817
01:08:03,750 --> 01:08:00,799
all this additional funding

1818
01:08:06,390 --> 01:08:03,760
is to actually you know have

1819
01:08:08,230 --> 01:08:06,400
real-time radars monitoring parts of the

1820
01:08:10,950 --> 01:08:08,240
world where some of these um strange

1821
01:08:12,870 --> 01:08:10,960
uaps have been seen have aircraft ready

1822
01:08:15,510 --> 01:08:12,880
to scramble a bit like what we've just

1823
01:08:17,189 --> 01:08:15,520
heard at lakenheath yeah but when

1824
01:08:18,789 --> 01:08:17,199
something happens

1825
01:08:20,789 --> 01:08:18,799
hack actually be monitoring the

1826
01:08:22,390 --> 01:08:20,799
situation in real time so you've got two

1827
01:08:24,309 --> 01:08:22,400
or three different radars you've got

1828
01:08:25,990 --> 01:08:24,319
aircraft you've got visual observers

1829
01:08:27,829 --> 01:08:26,000
that's what you need

1830
01:08:31,189 --> 01:08:27,839
and that's what they should be looking

1831
01:08:33,430 --> 01:08:31,199
for and sadly we have had this in

1832
01:08:35,189 --> 01:08:33,440
instances like lake and heath bend

1833
01:08:36,630 --> 01:08:35,199
waters in the past but sadly they

1834
01:08:38,630 --> 01:08:36,640
haven't kept the evidence or they

1835
01:08:40,229 --> 01:08:38,640
haven't shared it with the people that

1836
01:08:41,749 --> 01:08:40,239
should have shared it with so we can

1837
01:08:44,229 --> 01:08:41,759
only hope that that's what they might do

1838
01:08:46,149 --> 01:08:44,239
but i've absolutely no doubt i've have

1839
01:08:48,550 --> 01:08:46,159
no confidence shall i say that the

1840
01:08:50,390 --> 01:08:48,560
british are doing anything remotely as

1841
01:08:51,510 --> 01:08:50,400
comprehensive as this i mean i think

1842
01:08:53,110 --> 01:08:51,520
they'll just be doing what they've

1843
01:08:54,550 --> 01:08:53,120
always done and just said well the

1844
01:08:58,229 --> 01:08:54,560
americans have got more money and more

1845
01:09:00,470 --> 01:08:58,239
resources than we have leave it to them

1846
01:09:02,149 --> 01:09:00,480
yeah absolutely well listen david we've

1847
01:09:04,550 --> 01:09:02,159
just hit an hour and ten minutes in we

1848
01:09:06,789 --> 01:09:04,560
we're gonna bring up another case but my

1849
01:09:08,550 --> 01:09:06,799
suggestion will be that we'll do with

1850
01:09:10,309 --> 01:09:08,560
that case what we did with this one and

1851
01:09:12,390 --> 01:09:10,319
maybe dedicate you know half an hour or

1852
01:09:14,309 --> 01:09:12,400
at least an hour to it in the future if

1853
01:09:16,390 --> 01:09:14,319
you're okay with that i think these

1854
01:09:18,470 --> 01:09:16,400
cases do warrant looking back on because

1855
01:09:20,709 --> 01:09:18,480
they're not heard of or spoken about as

1856
01:09:22,709 --> 01:09:20,719
much as as we'd probably like especially

1857
01:09:24,870 --> 01:09:22,719
when they've got that much evidence and

1858
01:09:26,630 --> 01:09:24,880
and data so

1859
01:09:28,630 --> 01:09:26,640
yeah oh we've got a question here i

1860
01:09:29,910 --> 01:09:28,640
didn't know if the signal has joined us

1861
01:09:31,990 --> 01:09:29,920
uh

1862
01:09:33,990 --> 01:09:32,000
do you think details on big cases like

1863
01:09:35,430 --> 01:09:34,000
roswell could be lost due to poor

1864
01:09:37,110 --> 01:09:35,440
record-keeping

1865
01:09:38,149 --> 01:09:37,120
straight answer to that is definitely

1866
01:09:39,669 --> 01:09:38,159
yes

1867
01:09:42,390 --> 01:09:39,679
and i think

1868
01:09:44,149 --> 01:09:42,400
sadly we've got to recognize that um we

1869
01:09:45,590 --> 01:09:44,159
might think this subject is interesting

1870
01:09:46,709 --> 01:09:45,600
but there's an awful lot of people

1871
01:09:48,309 --> 01:09:46,719
particularly in the military and

1872
01:09:49,749 --> 01:09:48,319
government who think it's a complete

1873
01:09:52,870 --> 01:09:49,759
waste of time

1874
01:09:56,390 --> 01:09:52,880
and public money and sadly those that

1875
01:09:58,070 --> 01:09:56,400
that mindset has has just as

1876
01:10:00,149 --> 01:09:58,080
their influence and they've got a lot of

1877
01:10:02,470 --> 01:10:00,159
influence they've destroyed a lot of

1878
01:10:04,149 --> 01:10:02,480
this material i mean i should mention

1879
01:10:06,870 --> 01:10:04,159
here i mean you know about this vinny

1880
01:10:08,390 --> 01:10:06,880
but um a colleague of mine um matthew

1881
01:10:10,790 --> 01:10:08,400
hillsley

1882
01:10:13,110 --> 01:10:10,800
recently um put in a freedom of

1883
01:10:15,510 --> 01:10:13,120
information act request and

1884
01:10:17,990 --> 01:10:15,520
to try and find out what's happened to

1885
01:10:19,350 --> 01:10:18,000
the unredacted version of the condyle

1886
01:10:21,189 --> 01:10:19,360
report which as you know was only

1887
01:10:23,030 --> 01:10:21,199
finished in 2000

1888
01:10:25,350 --> 01:10:23,040
and the one that was released there's

1889
01:10:27,590 --> 01:10:25,360
bits of it that were top secret and i

1890
01:10:29,110 --> 01:10:27,600
was told that this file it would be

1891
01:10:31,910 --> 01:10:29,120
preserved it could be released at the

1892
01:10:34,070 --> 01:10:31,920
national archives well matthew um sent a

1893
01:10:35,270 --> 01:10:34,080
freedom of information request last year

1894
01:10:37,669 --> 01:10:35,280
i think he was

1895
01:10:40,070 --> 01:10:37,679
and after a long delay because of all

1896
01:10:42,070 --> 01:10:40,080
the usual things coveted et cetera

1897
01:10:43,990 --> 01:10:42,080
someone came back to him and said well

1898
01:10:46,790 --> 01:10:44,000
we've looked for it but um we think it's

1899
01:10:49,590 --> 01:10:46,800
been accidentally destroyed

1900
01:10:51,830 --> 01:10:49,600
this is the condone report

1901
01:10:53,990 --> 01:10:51,840
that's ridiculous

1902
01:10:55,590 --> 01:10:54,000
i mean is that stupidity or just

1903
01:10:56,870 --> 01:10:55,600
negligence

1904
01:10:59,590 --> 01:10:56,880
i mean well

1905
01:11:01,590 --> 01:10:59,600
again i just i just think they they just

1906
01:11:03,750 --> 01:11:01,600
they don't value it they don't value the

1907
01:11:05,830 --> 01:11:03,760
subject they don't um

1908
01:11:07,350 --> 01:11:05,840
they don't think it's important they

1909
01:11:09,590 --> 01:11:07,360
they just they just think they just

1910
01:11:12,550 --> 01:11:09,600
regard the likes of us as nuisance as a

1911
01:11:14,470 --> 01:11:12,560
nuisance basically so anyway um this has

1912
01:11:16,310 --> 01:11:14,480
got me on their back and i've raised it

1913
01:11:18,229 --> 01:11:16,320
with my mp

1914
01:11:20,070 --> 01:11:18,239
and put in a formal complaint to the

1915
01:11:21,430 --> 01:11:20,080
information commissioner so i think

1916
01:11:22,630 --> 01:11:21,440
they'll be seeing a bit of heat over

1917
01:11:25,430 --> 01:11:22,640
this one

1918
01:11:27,350 --> 01:11:25,440
yeah absolutely dan says great answer

1919
01:11:29,910 --> 01:11:27,360
david thank you we shall meet soon when

1920
01:11:31,270 --> 01:11:29,920
i visit vinnie absolutely man if you're

1921
01:11:33,270 --> 01:11:31,280
not aware that's dan who i went to

1922
01:11:35,669 --> 01:11:33,280
columbia with and yes i gathered all

1923
01:11:37,669 --> 01:11:35,679
that yeah yeah excellent well listen

1924
01:11:39,430 --> 01:11:37,679
david let's leave it at that we'll

1925
01:11:41,590 --> 01:11:39,440
arrange to come back and talk about the

1926
01:11:43,030 --> 01:11:41,600
the top cliff case um if you don't mind

1927
01:11:45,750 --> 01:11:43,040
hanging about we'll have a little chat

1928
01:11:47,830 --> 01:11:45,760
after this uh after we end this i just

1929
01:11:49,669 --> 01:11:47,840
want to say again thank you so much i

1930
01:11:51,110 --> 01:11:49,679
found all the research that you'd done

1931
01:11:52,870 --> 01:11:51,120
fascinating and

1932
01:11:55,350 --> 01:11:52,880
going through the interviews

1933
01:11:57,669 --> 01:11:55,360
it was just shockingly

1934
01:11:59,350 --> 01:11:57,679
interesting and you know i'm glad that

1935
01:12:01,590 --> 01:11:59,360
we got to do this and put this case back

1936
01:12:04,149 --> 01:12:01,600
out there for people to see like i said

1937
01:12:06,470 --> 01:12:04,159
to everybody who is watching now or in

1938
01:12:08,310 --> 01:12:06,480
the future or listening if you go to the

1939
01:12:10,229 --> 01:12:08,320
youtube video look in the description

1940
01:12:12,550 --> 01:12:10,239
below you can download and listen to the

1941
01:12:14,870 --> 01:12:12,560
full interviews from all of those guys

1942
01:12:17,189 --> 01:12:14,880
that we played the clips from today it

1943
01:12:19,510 --> 01:12:17,199
is fascinating you know and i i just

1944
01:12:20,950 --> 01:12:19,520
can't recommend it enough so yeah go

1945
01:12:22,550 --> 01:12:20,960
ahead and check it out

1946
01:12:24,550 --> 01:12:22,560
um yeah

1947
01:12:26,550 --> 01:12:24,560
i think that's it guys i'm gonna be back

1948
01:12:27,990 --> 01:12:26,560
tomorrow night i'm i'm not having a day

1949
01:12:30,950 --> 01:12:28,000
off this week back tomorrow night with

1950
01:12:33,350 --> 01:12:30,960
christina gomez so check in then but for

1951
01:12:35,030 --> 01:12:33,360
now guys we'll love you and leave you

1952
01:12:37,030 --> 01:12:35,040
have a great rest of your day and we'll